Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[Stacyhs]

I posted this earlier:

And I'll be right there condemning the police if the investigation show that's what happened. But a lot of people in this thread were crapping all over the police almost immediately without knowing the facts.

As the investigation has now confirmed that there were still children alive in the room and the Commander knew it when he and several officers were outside the classroom door, the Commander should have ordered his officers to breach it instead of treating it as a 'barricade'. That is on the Commander in charge and, too a slightly lesser degree, on the officers who were with him.

I do not think those officers were 'cowards' as some here have called them. They did, in fact, take down the shooter. It was a very poor judgment call by the Commander and against shooter situation protocol. He should be held to account for it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Yet another ruse.

Only person talking about John McClane/xbox fantasies is you. And worse you're putting the words other people's mouths.

That's a cheap debate trick.

The cops on the scene, the state police department and countless others had 40 minutes to talk (okay, shout and demand) this commander out of a really stupid decision that ran counter to every ding dang thing they have been taught.

So are you arguing that the entire system in Texas is broken?

--------
Dope Clock II: It's been 347 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

It's true. I just don't think that's how things work in real life.

Group decision making under stress isn't that easy.

Don't get me wrong. It sure seems like the wrong decision was made, but I'm not going to say that every single cop on the scene did the wrong thing. I don't think anyone who followed orders can be faulted.

As for people who should have tried to talk the boss into a different strategy, I agree that they should have. I suspect that some of them did. I don't know, and I don't know if we will ever know, who did that, and how anyone around them reacted. There are an awful lot of people in the world, indeed most people in the world, who will gladly accept orders rather than have to accept responsibility for a decision they made themselves, so I can easily imagine 19 people going along with one guy who seems to know what he is talking about, and is in charge anyway.

 

[plague311]

At the press conference today there was reference made to a commander on the scene. I don't think the other cops can be faulted for following orders.

They. Were. In. The. School. Before. Any. Commander. Gave. Instruction.

I don't know why this has to be repeated so many times.

Yes, there was a commander on scene that made terrible choices but the cops were inside, at the door...double digit numbers of them. They ******* engaged the shooter at some level because a few "got grazed". That's when they tucked tail and ran.

The locals also stopped Border Patrol from going in, who apparently didn't care about the local police's commands.

 

[lobosrul5]

At least one person, recently. So, you are saying that the rest wouldn't go in, wouldn't disobey orders, wouldn't play the lone-wolf hero??? I'm just trying to get an idea of how courageous these people are that are proclaiming that all of these cops are "cowards" or "pussies".

So... could you give me a link or give me the post #?

 

[Bob001]

.....
1) It is a FACT that the door was propped open.
2) It is a FACT that the school district's policy was for it to be closed and locked.
3) It is a FACT that the shooter gained entrance to the school through that door.
.....

That all seems like a distraction. This wasn't a routine trespasser. Can there be any doubt that the guy would have shot his way through the front door, or entered any other way he could have? For that matter, if he had knocked at the locked door, isn't it more likely than not that somebody would have opened it to ask why? Or he could have opened fire through the windows from outside. This is just not something to focus on.

 

[plague311]

I do not think those officers were 'cowards' as some here have called them. They did, in fact, take down the shooter. It was a very poor judgment call by the Commander and against shooter situation protocol. He should be held to account for it.

Just a bit of a clarification. The local cops didn't take down a ******* thing.

Check that, they arrested a parent.

The Border Patrol took down the shooter.

 

[shemp]

At the press conference today there was reference made to a commander on the scene. I don't think the other cops can be faulted for following orders.

I guess we'll just issue pardons for everyone convicted at Nuremberg.

 

[Stacyhs]

I think what I am babbling about is clear.
Some people on the left in this forum are just as blindly dogmatic in their opiniond, and automatically regurgative the "Correct" opinions, as those on the right.
I am ptobably not long for this forum, since it is becoming incresingly intolerant of anybody who dares to question left wing orthodoxy., and thinks a lot of it is just as messed up as that of the right.

Agreed.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I remember that time I was grazed by bullets sitting at my keyboard.

You guys act like these are battle-hardened soldiers of fortune. 99.9% of these guys time is probably spent doing routine, daily tasks. Which don't include taking gunfire. I mean it is commendable how so many claim that they would run in, guns blazing. Like, super-commendable.

Then when it came time to do the job they are paid and trained for they pissed themselves.
The Uvalde police are what happens when you go years and years without accountability, scrutiny or ever having to answer to anyone.

It's when the 0.01% thing happens that you find out what kind of person you are.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Who, in this thread, has stated that? I haven't seen it, but its possible I missed a post or two.

I did and I would have. I know how I react when under fire.

 

[Andy_Ross]

At least one person, recently. So, you are saying that the rest wouldn't go in, wouldn't disobey orders, wouldn't play the lone-wolf hero??? I'm just trying to get an idea of how courageous these people are that are proclaiming that all of these cops are "cowards" or "pussies".

It's not about being a 'hero' It's about doing the right thing, the thing you are are paid and trained for and expected to do when it comes to the crunch.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I, for one, agree with Warp12 on this. It is an utter myth that a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun. Simply throwing more guns into the situation is pointless.

A trained officer with a gun is expected to go against a bad guy with a gun. It's their job.
What else do you think should happen?

 

[Upchurch]

A trained officer with a gun is expected to go against a bad guy with a gun. It's their job.
What else do you think should happen?

I like the Australian approach, personally.

 

[Andy_Ross]

At the press conference today there was reference made to a commander on the scene. I don't think the other cops can be faulted for following orders.

Of course they can.
Nuremburg Defence.

 

[lobosrul5]

Of course they can.
Nuremburg Defence.

Also there's the little* fact that several of the officers did rush in... to save their children. They found plenty of bravery when their own child's life was at stake.

*thats sarcasm

 

[Andy_Ross]

I posted this earlier:



As the investigation has now confirmed that there were still children alive in the room and the Commander knew it when he and several officers were outside the classroom door, the Commander should have ordered his officers to breach it instead of treating it as a 'barricade'. That is on the Commander in charge and, too a slightly lesser degree, on the officers who were with him.

I do not think those officers were 'cowards' as some here have called them. They did, in fact, take down the shooter. It was a very poor judgment call by the Commander and against shooter situation protocol. He should be held to account for it.

They were on the scene within minutes and did nothing even though it has been established for years that fast action is required.
Some of them exchanged fire and then stopped.
They pissed around and let the kids die while a commander dithered. Not a single one of them took charge.

 

[Stacyhs]

Group dynamics are a strange thing. People questioned why college students at Virginia Tech sat still while the killer patiently put a bullet in the head of one person after another. I'd like to think I'd rush into Robb Elementary, take down the rampager, and evenly say, "Class is dismissed." Such fantasies are widespread. After Parkland, Trump claimed he would have stormed the building unarmed.

I agree. The "I would have" claims never surprise me as most of them are said from the comfort and safety of their armchairs or computer desks. Some people actually 'would have' but I don't doubt that most of them would not react as they like to think they would. Armchair heroes are a dime a dozen.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So... could you give me a link or give me the post #?

Me

 

[Andy_Ross]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13818860&postcount=983




Certainly the implication in many of these comments is that the poster would have done something differently, if it were them. Otherwise what are you saying? That a bunch of non-courageous and/or cowardly people are calling all of those cops "cowards" and "pussies"? Over the internet? I can hardly imagine that.

I certainly would. I have been under fire by far more than a kid with a gun. I know how I reacted then and would react in future. I 'passed the test' probably before you were born.

 

[Bob001]

.....
Yes, there was a commander on scene that made terrible choices
.....

That "commander" was the chief of the six-person Uvalde school district police, while experienced city, county and federal police were arrayed outside. Somebody, almost anybody, should have said "Get outta the way!" It sounds like there's a real jurisdictional issue.

A reporter today is saying an off-duty Border Patrol officer getting a haircut heard about the first 911 calls, borrowed a shotgun from his barber and entered the school with a couple other officers to get all the kids out of the classroom where his own kid was.