Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[angrysoba]

Regarding the idea of "let's not blame the police just yet until the investigation is done", the conclusion is known. Whether the police acted exactly as they should or were derelict in their duties, the point is that the Republican solution: "ARMED GUARDS AT SCHOOLS" failed! It's a failure of a policy.

The problem is the guns!

There is no point saying, "well in our society we just hand over the job of stopping kids being massacred to teachers and armed guards at schools". When you get people showing up to shoot kids at schools the problems have already happened. This should not be such a regular occurrence that you start asking, "What were the police doing to stop the shooter at the door?" "Why did the teachers not have the bulletproof shields battened down already as anyone knows should be a standard safety routine?"

 

[The Atheist]

When I went to school in Denmark, anytime we went on a field trip, nobody brought a rifle or any other kind of firearm. No school had a security guard. It wasn't necessary because the crazies weren't armed.

New Zealand had a school shooting.

99 years ago.

 

[catsmate]

Why didn't any of the teachers at that school have a gun? Not even one of them was armed.

Because armed teachers are a terrible idea. Because not many teachers actually like the idea.

Why didn't the school have a security officer on duty? This is a large elementary school with over 700 students. You'd think that would have qualified for having a security guard on the school grounds.

There was one.

Why doesn't Texas have a red flag law?

Abbott and Patrick didn't like it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I understand the logic, in the UK, where the local police are unarmed and they wait for armed police to arrive.

I do not understand the logic when armed police wait for armed police to arrive.

Or do the local police not bother with any active shooter training and their guns are just to shoot unarmed people?

Apart from in the UK we have incidents where the police tackled gunmen without waiting for the armed unit to arrive.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I can't speak for the US, but here, those kinds of doors look like this...

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/dw7z9pt2rb5t9wd/fire-exit-door.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]

... they are heavy, very secure and can only be opened from the inside (by simply pushing against the crossbar).

They can also be configured to trigger the fire alarms if they are opened.

They always provide a nice heavy fire extinguisher to prop them open on hot days though, or to use as a shortcut from the cricket pitch back to the changing rooms.

 

[EaglePuncher]

Regarding the idea of "let's not blame the police just yet until the investigation is done", the conclusion is known. Whether the police acted exactly as they should or were derelict in their duties, the point is that the Republican solution: "ARMED GUARDS AT SCHOOLS" failed! It's a failure of a policy.

The problem is the guns!

There is no point saying, "well in our society we just hand over the job of stopping kids being massacred to teachers and armed guards at schools". When you get people showing up to shoot kids at schools the problems have already happened. This should not be such a regular occurrence that you start asking, "What were the police doing to stop the shooter at the door?" "Why did the teachers not have the bulletproof shields battened down already as anyone knows should be a standard safety routine?"

It's like having an arsonist in the neighbourhood and the police won't investigate but recommends buying more fire extinguishers.

 

[angrysoba]

Because armed teachers are a terrible idea. Because not many teachers actually like the idea.

Yep, if the police who are trained to do this, don't know how to handle it, then why assume that teachers should also double up as SWAT team members?

 

[Andy_Ross]

It's in Redcar...

The main police station for the area used to be in Redcar but they closed it a few years ago and moved out of town to a new building on an industrial estate.
The building was turned in to flats. That's what happened to the old police station and magistrates court up in Guisborough too.

 

[Nessie]

It was laid down after Columbine. go in as quickly as possible.

A school shooting like this is not a 'hostage situation'

If someone holes up in a classroom with kids and holds them hostage, it is a hostage situation. If someone roams around the building shooting, it is an active shooter situation. In a moment, that situation can change from one to the other.

 

[jimbob]

If someone holes up in a classroom with kids and holds them hostage, it is a hostage situation. If someone roams around the building shooting, it is an active shooter situation. In a moment, that situation can change from one to the other.

If the hostage taker starts shooting the hostages, it's no longer a hostage situation

 

[Nessie]

Apart from in the UK we have incidents where the police tackled gunmen without waiting for the armed unit to arrive.

Which are enforced on the unarmed police at the time, it is not the tactic that should be used.

It is worth noting that shootings have been ended by unarmed citizens in the USA;

"A Study of Active Shooter Incidents in the United States between 2000 and 2013"

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-study-2000-2013-1.pdf

"In 21 incidents (13.1%), the situation ended after unarmed citizens safely and success-fully restrained the shooter."

"Of note, 11 of the incidents involved unarmed principals, teachers, other school staff and students who confronted shooters to end the threat (9 of those shooters were students)."

 

[Nessie]

If the hostage taker starts shooting the hostages, it's no longer a hostage situation

No, it is still a hostage situation. The important part being the incident is static and confined to one place, allowing it to be secured as a locus. If the shooter moves, they can be shot.

 

[Warp12]

I know everyone is having fun bashing the cops, but to me the real interest is in the shooter. What upbringing and external factors created this monster?

What about the parents and family of this killer...what are they saying?

 

[a_unique_person]

I know everyone is having fun bashing the cops, but to me the real interest is in the shooter. What upbringing and external factors created this monster?

What about the parents and family of this killer...what are they saying?

I think cops rightly would be tentative about their own family missing a parent that night. Texas is going to have to order cops to go in no matter what the risk. They will lose a few, possibly several, of course. The shooter will like it, too. They want to go out that way.

 

[Nessie]

A reporter on UK Sky News has claimed that whilst some cops were not doing anything, others were breaking windows and getting people out.

Tactically, that would make sense, some cops man the cordon and others try and rescue.

However, that does not appear to have been what was being done as a coordinated plan. It looks like that just happened, as the cops reacted differently in the chaos. That smacks of poor leadership, poor training and a local force who could not recruit suitable people to be cops.

 

[Warp12]

A reporter on UK Sky News has claimed that whilst some cops were not doing anything, others were breaking windows and getting people out.

Tactically, that would make sense, some cops man the cordon and others try and rescue.

However, that does not appear to have been what was being done as a coordinated plan. It looks like that just happened, as the cops reacted differently in the chaos. That smacks of poor leadership, poor training and a local force who could not recruit suitable people to be cops.

Well, I think we really need to know what the leadership was advising. If the cops had a standing order not to enter and to wait for the cavalry, I think it is unreasonable to expect them to act as lone wolf cowboys. I imagine we know a lot more about the situation now than the cops did then.

And, to add, even what we know now...and some are judging others over...is very incomplete.

 

[angrysoba]

Well, I think we really need to know what the leadership was advising. If the cops had a standing order not to enter and to wait for the calvary, I think it is unreasonable to expect them to act as lone wolf cowboys. I imagine we know a lot more about the situation now than the cops did then.

And, to add, even what we know now...and some are judging others over...is very incomplete.

Cavalry.

Calvary has an unfortunate meaning in this context.

 

[Warp12]

Cavalry.

Calvary has an unfortunate meaning in this context.

Good catch. Corrected.

 

[The Don]

Regarding the idea of "let's not blame the police just yet until the investigation is done", the conclusion is known. Whether the police acted exactly as they should or were derelict in their duties, the point is that the Republican solution: "ARMED GUARDS AT SCHOOLS" failed! It's a failure of a policy.

The problem is the guns!

There is no point saying, "well in our society we just hand over the job of stopping kids being massacred to teachers and armed guards at schools". When you get people showing up to shoot kids at schools the problems have already happened. This should not be such a regular occurrence that you start asking, "What were the police doing to stop the shooter at the door?" "Why did the teachers not have the bulletproof shields battened down already as anyone knows should be a standard safety routine?"

Unless the problem was that there simply weren't enough armed guards.

 

[arayder]

English? Hell, Tain't mine neither.

Guns break. They get rust on them at an alarming rate. Useable heavily used guns from 30, 40 years ago are rare. Sure there are old 1911's and M1s. But they have been in safes and stored by people who aren't the problem.

Ok, I get your point. Was under the impression that storing guns is easy, if you pack them in some bags or crates.

If a gun got banned today (with no grandfathering) I don't think the manufacturers would take them in for repair. Gunsmiths the same. Some gun owners like to pretend they are self sufficient dudes who can repair their broken guns, but that's a man-lie. Most people aren't that good at gun repair. There might well be grown an unground network of people able to repair outlawed guns in their shops/benches at home. But that network would be a crazy place since everyone in it has something on everyone else. . .that being owning or repairing banned guns.

Sawed off shoot guns and short rifles (under 18 inches) got banned back in the FDR era. They mostly disappeared because, besides been a ticket to jail, they couldn't be kept up by owners. There are stories from years ago of ignoramuses pulling out grandpa's sawed off shot gun to show it off only to have everyone in the room to shout," Christ, Bubba, that gun's illegal. You better get rid of it! "

I don't want to be one of the "Nothing can be done" guys, I read SmartCooky's list above and totally agree that all these things are worth implementing but for now I still hold on to my point that any change to any law will be "telegraphed" and thus leads to panic buying and hoarding.

Guns or mags could be grandfathered in. Meaning that owners could keep the ones they have. The rule would probably be that they couldn't be sold privately or go through a licensed dealer. So they couldn't sold around. Record keeping would be a challenge. But so is the process of getting approved to own a machine gun.

But these guns would break to. It probably wouldn't illegal for a gunsmith to repair them. But as the guns get reduced in number gunsmiths would be more likely to pass on accepting them. . ."I ain't seen one like that in years. I don't think I can fix it." Meaning they don't want to fix it.

So the gun ends up as what's called a "wall hanger". . .an old deactivated gun hung over the fireplace. I have one myself. It was never illegal, though. The repair process was so costly and time consuming that I just gave up.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 347 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.