Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Rolfe]

Come on! I wanted to hear how they are getting their “role playing” wrong. While you are at it. Explain where you get off judging their sincerity or even someone’s right to dare to behave performatively in public.

This isn't about toilets and sports.

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 12 edited out

The role-playing is generally woeful. But that's not the point. Any way of being a woman is fine. No woman has to do anything in particular other than be conceived as a female embryo. If you weren't conceived as a female embryo then there is no costume or behaviour that will make you one.

The trans lobby thinks that acting and makeup make someone a woman, and that they're better at it than women. They are wrong.

 

[theprestige]

Come on! I wanted to hear how they are getting their “role playing” wrong. While you are at it. Explain where you get off judging their sincerity or even someone’s right to dare to behave performatively in public.

This isn't about toilets and sports.

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 12 edited out

It pretty much is only about toilets and sports*. That is - safe spaces for women and whether transwomen should have access to them, and why.

These are practical questions of safety (perceived and actual).

 

[Emily's Cat]

The question assumes essentialist notions of gender that are present in the parody claim, “I identify as an attack helicopter.” Self identification with a gender social construct is by definition an internal existential position that you couldn’t be wrong about any more than you could about being happy. You could be deceptive about it - a fear expressed in the thread. A claim like “I feel like a woman” while not having the possibility of direct access to the phenomenological experiences of others can be questioned.

It seems like you're saying that the person who is male, has been living as a male their entire life with no hint of dysphoria whatsoever... but who says out loud "I am a woman" AFTER having been arrested for raping a female with their penis... Is RIGHT about their gender identity being a "woman", even if they are being DECEITFUL about it?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have an observation. I wonder if it is shared or rejected...


I don't care if a person is scared or in fear. I care about actual risk. And my concern for actual risk doesn't change if others fear more less fearful about that risk than other risks.

A large part of the argument from trans activists about why transgender identified males should be entitled to female-only spaces is that THEY FEEL UNSAFE in the male spaces. Do you view their argument as reasonable or not?

In addition, how are you going to determine "actual risk"? How do you determine the risk to males from other males, versus the risk to females from males? How do you determine the risk to females from males who claim a "woman" identity?

There is data regarding assault and offenses, which has been presented in this thread multiple times:
- There's a high rate of sexual assault of transgender identified males (transwomen), but it includes a very disproportionate amount of prostitutes
- The rate of assault for transgender identified male prostitutes is slightly higher than the rate of assault for female prostitutes in the US
- The rate of assault for transgender identified males who are NOT prostitutes is materially LOWER THAN the rate of assault for females who are NOT prostitutes
- The rate of sexual offenses among males in general is monumentally higher than it is for females
- The rate of sexual offenses among incarcerated persons is HIGHER for transgender identified males than for males in general

So... what is your starting point for actual risk, as it pertains to placing fully-intact males who claim the gender identity of "woman" in with females in prisons or in spaces where females are particularly vulnerable?

 

[shuttlt]

It seems like you're saying that the person who is male, has been living as a male their entire life with no hint of dysphoria whatsoever... but who says out loud "I am a woman" AFTER having been arrested for raping a female with their penis... Is RIGHT about their gender identity being a "woman", even if they are being DECEITFUL about it?

I don't think you are going to get a good explanation here for this kind of thing. There is plenty of literature claiming that everything is just language games used to enforce power hierarchies that serve to promote one group and subjugate another. Maybe this is what Sideroxylon thinks, and maybe it isn't. There is definitely a school of thought that would say there is simply nothing to the category "woman" beyond the advantage it confers to the people allowed in to the category, and the people kept out. Even when people aren't explicitly arguing this, lots of less obviously difficult claims come from it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think of it as an act of kindness or basing it on their feelings. I'm indifferent to that. I think they are just categorically women.

1) What are the characteristics of the category of women?
2) In what way do females and transgender identified males BOTH fit those characteristics, but other males do NOT?

 

[shuttlt]

A large part of the argument from trans activists about why transgender identified males should be entitled to female-only spaces is that THEY FEEL UNSAFE in the male spaces. Do you view their argument as reasonable or not?

Maybe this is what BobTheCoward thinks, and maybe it isn't, but a significant part of this kind of theory is that there are hierarchies in terms of whose views matter. The concerns of the transgender community matter more than the cisgender community, because in the theory the cisgenders are mapped onto the bourgeoisie, while the transgenders are mapped onto the proletariat. The goal is to flip that, so that the first shall be last. You complaining about the risks to women is like a factory owner complaining about the impact on other factory owners of seizing the means of production.

In addition, how are you going to determine "actual risk"? How do you determine the risk to males from other males, versus the risk to females from males? How do you determine the risk to females from males who claim a "woman" identity?

Are any of these things about actual risk? All of these questions are decided for ideological reasons and then the facts are an afterthought. You can never win this talking about risks, because that isn't where the disagreement is.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I saw a clip of it, in which as far as I can see he merely quoted trans activists words verbatim, resulting in him being accused of mocking the most oppressed group on the planet.

He literally repeated the exact same things that trans activists have been saying directly to females for several years now. Gervais didn't exaggerate at all.

The fact that TRAs are up in arms about it is... bafflingly hilarious.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems like a rather low status target. In general, I think comedians should punch up if they are trying to take someone down a peg or two. His golden globes stuff was always great.

This is an absurd argument. Gervais punched in EVERY direction in that show. They spent far more time on several other topics, presented in the same fashion. The trans segment was a very short portion of the overall show.

And the TRAs are the only people who are upset about it. It's ridiculous.

 

[shuttlt]

He literally repeated the exact same things that trans activists have been saying directly to females for several years now. Gervais didn't exaggerate at all.

The fact that TRAs are up in arms about it is... bafflingly hilarious.

I hope I'm not repeating an observation I read here, maybe I am. Anyway, anybody who has had kids knows there there are at least two different types of crying. One is when it is genuinely in distress, and one when it is trying to break your will so that you will buy it the ice cream you promised your wife you wouldn't buy. I don't think that what you are describing is genuine distress, I think it's a group of crybullies doing what they do to get their way. It'll probably work.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender GP Michael Webberley erased from the medical register

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1713nEfKhB39s3LUHKsDgzxORkvoqMQWr/edit

Hooray!

Now... let's move on to their spouse.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Punching down or sacred cows aside, at this point it's just hack comedy.

Gervais is going to be like the 1 millionth edgelord standup comic to make the same tired anti-trans jokes.

I guess if you can't be good, being edgy will still pay the bills.

Sure, sure, the 1 millionth comic to repeat the exact things that TRAs actually literally say to females.

 

[shuttlt]

Sure, sure, the 1 millionth comic to repeat the exact things that TRAs actually literally say to females.

Except they are the good guys, and you are the bad guys... therefore they are punching up and it's good. If you do it, you are punching down, and so it's bad. There are no bad tactics, only bad targets.

 

[Elaedith]

Sure, sure, the 1 millionth comic to repeat the exact things that TRAs actually literally say to females.

Yes, if TRAs don't like his material they should stop writing it.

 

[shuttlt]

Yes, if TRAs don't like his material they should stop writing it.

It doesn't work like that. It's the same way that a feminist comic can do 90 minutes about men and how terrible they are, where as if you flip that you've got a routine that would look like it had been pulled from the 1970s.

 

[Emily's Cat]

People who don’t conform to traditional gender norms must be treated with dignity, respect, care and not discriminated against.

Can we unpack this? You've pressed a lot of stuff into one sentence, and seemingly think everyone knows what you mean. So please flesh it out some.

- What constitutes traditional gender norms?
- What constitutes not conforming to traditional gender norms?
- What constitutes being treated with dignity, respect, and care in this context, and what the opposite?
- What constitutes discrimination in this context?

 

[Emily's Cat]

And essentialist attitudes to gender that affirm their gender self-identity of other are the basis to slam the door on considering other options.


But I think I understand what you are saying this time. However, people insist on asserting an answer to the identity question, and then insist that since they have an answer on identity, it implies an answer on the consequential issue.


Q Should Lia Thomas be allowed to swim in the women's division?

A1 - Yes. She's a woman.
A2 - No. She's a man.

Both of those are gender essentialist answers.

I disagree. A1 is a gender essentialist answer. A2 is a sex realist answer.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Essentialist views on gender are more in the realms of metaphysics*. A shortcut to understanding would be to see how Christian ideas of male and female as being built in to souls by God. Essentialist notions in gender can also be rooted in the biology of sex and brain differences etc. Contrast this with the idea of gender being a social construct that we are socialised into. Then there is the often better middle view. Unfortunately a lot of the debate is driven by visceral naive essentialist views on gender. That gut reaction leads to people think “I identify as an attack helicopter” is a slam dunk commonsense assault on people they deny dignity to.

* A hill to explore but not die on.

Just so we're clear... the essentialist notion of gender that you present - being rooted in the biology of sex and brain differences - is 100% pure speculation. It's "sophisticated theology". It assumes that there exists a biological component of gender that is completely divorced from the biology of sex, and it assumes that there exists a material difference in the brain that produces gender identity.

Neither of those is supported by actual science. A male with the gender identity of "woman" is 100% exactly as male as they would be if they had the gender identity of "man".

 

[shuttlt]

Just so we're clear... the essentialist notion of gender that you present - being rooted in the biology of sex and brain differences - is 100% pure speculation. It's "sophisticated theology". It assumes that there exists a biological component of gender that is completely divorced from the biology of sex, and it assumes that there exists a material difference in the brain that produces gender identity.

Neither of those is supported by actual science. A male with the gender identity of "woman" is 100% exactly as male as they would be if they had the gender identity of "man".

Something feels wrong here to me. Where ever people's identity lies, it's in their brains. I don't think you and Rolfe regard gender as being an internal identity. I think for you, it's more like if I identified as a teapot.... I'm just wrong. My wrong teapot notion is in my brain, and perhaps some day science may have advanced to the point where it can be found, but that still wouldn't make me a teapot. If I understand you and Rolfe correctly, the consequences of being a woman are unquestionably imprinted on your brains, just as much as they are imprinted on your bodies, but that is a consequence of you being an adult human female, not the thing that makes you an adult human female.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Maybe they need your list of how to be a woman. The dos and don’ts. A finishing school with certificates even! Fake it until you make it they say.

And how are the new men going do you think?


So often this ******** floats to the surface in the lull between earnest discussion about where we piss and **** and fairness in sports.

My list is very concise: Develop in the complete absence of a functional SRY gene. The necessary and sufficient condition to be a 'woman' is to be female.

A black female is a woman, contrary to the claims of TRAs who say that "if black women get to be women transwomen should too". A female who has had a hysterectomy is a woman. A female without arms is a woman. A female with short hair who likes combat boots is a woman. I female with broad shoulders and is turned on by other females is a woman. A female with hairy pits and legs is a woman. A female that chews with their mouth open, swigs beer, spits, and farts is a woman.

A male with breast implants, cosmetically altered facial and tracheal features, an orchiectomy, a vaginoplasty, in a well-tailored Chanel dress and Prada heels wearing Clarins make-up expertly applied is... a man.

Because the necessary and sufficient condition to be a 'man' is to have developed with a functional SRY gene.

Everything else is expression.