• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Trans women are not women (Part 8)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Meadmaker said:
True.

And my values say that fairness in women's sports and preservation of women's privacy is more important than affirming someone's sense of identity.
Click to expand...

Is anyone not looking at the issues practically? They just reach a different conclusion of costs than you.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Is anyone not looking at the issues practically? They just reach a different conclusion of costs than you.
Click to expand...

What I'm getting at started with Sideroxylon's comment that we have to resolve the identity issue before we deal with the other issues.


What I say is that we cannot solve the identity issue, ever. We can't even define the identity issue, much less solve it. It's an internal state of mind, not something we can pass laws about.


However, we could pass laws saying what sort of people can take off their clothes in a locker room that says "Girls" on the outside. That's a practical, verifiable, thing. Maybe "practical" isn't the right word, but I don't actually care what the right word is.
 
Meadmaker said:
What I'm getting at started with Sideroxylon's comment that we have to resolve the identity issue before we deal with the other issues.


What I say is that we cannot solve the identity issue, ever. We can't even define the identity issue, much less solve it. It's an internal state of mind, not something we can pass laws about.


However, we could pass laws saying what sort of people can take off their clothes in a locker room that says "Girls" on the outside. That's a practical, verifiable, thing. Maybe "practical" isn't the right word, but I don't actually care what the right word is.
Click to expand...

I have said (and not above) that resolving the identity question posed in the title is not a necessary condition to resolving the practical issues around bathrooms or fairness in sports.

Essentialist attitudes to gender that deny gender self identity of others are the basis to slam the door on considering those options.

People who don’t conform to traditional gender norms must be treated with dignity, respect, care and not discriminated against.
 
Last edited:
Sideroxylon said:
Essentialist attitudes to gender that deny gender self identity of others are the basis to slam the door on considering those options.
Click to expand...

And essentialist attitudes to gender that affirm their gender self-identity of other are the basis to slam the door on considering other options.


But I think I understand what you are saying this time. However, people insist on asserting an answer to the identity question, and then insist that since they have an answer on identity, it implies an answer on the consequential issue.


Q Should Lia Thomas be allowed to swim in the women's division?

A1 - Yes. She's a woman.
A2 - No. She's a man.

Both of those are gender essentialist answers.
 
Essentialist views on gender are more in the realms of metaphysics*. A shortcut to understanding would be to see how Christian ideas of male and female as being built in to souls by God. Essentialist notions in gender can also be rooted in the biology of sex and brain differences etc. Contrast this with the idea of gender being a social construct that we are socialised into. Then there is the often better middle view. Unfortunately a lot of the debate is driven by visceral naive essentialist views on gender. That gut reaction leads to people think “I identify as an attack helicopter” is a slam dunk commonsense assault on people they deny dignity to.

* A hill to explore but not die on.
 
Last edited:
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Is it a new standup? That may be enough to get me to sign up for Netflix again.
Click to expand...

It is new. I'm quite sure it just dropped sometime within the last week or so. I only realized it because I saw headlines about it on my news feed, so I went to Netflix. It's called Super Nature. It's not all trans jokes obviously, those are just the ones that got the woke crowd riled up.
 
Puppycow said:
It is new. I'm quite sure it just dropped sometime within the last week or so. I only realized it because I saw headlines about it on my news feed, so I went to Netflix. It's called Super Nature. It's not all trans jokes obviously, those are just the ones that got the woke crowd riled up.
Click to expand...

I saw a clip of him doing part of that bit. It was hilarious, in a "how many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb/that's not funny!" kind of way.
 
Sideroxylon said:
Essentialist views on gender are more in the realms of metaphysics*. A shortcut to understanding would be to see how Christian ideas of male and female as being built in to souls by God. Essentialist notions in gender can also be rooted in the biology of sex and brain differences etc. Contrast this with the idea of gender being a social construct that we are socialised into. Then there is the often better middle view. Unfortunately a lot of the debate is driven by visceral naive essentialist views on gender. That gut reaction leads to people think “I identify as an attack helicopter” is a slam dunk commonsense assault on people they deny dignity to.

* A hill to explore but not die on.
Click to expand...


It seems to me, then, the best thing to do is not focus on what drives a lot of the debate, and just focus on what we ought to do. Don't let those people drive your debate. I won't let them drive mine.
 
Sideroxylon said:
...

People who don’t conform to traditional gender norms must be treated with dignity, respect, care and not discriminated against.
Click to expand...

Few groups conform to gender norms as faithfully as trans ideologists. Their "identities" are 100% dependent on conservative sexist stereotypes of what a man or a women should be and how they should or shouldn't behave.
 
JihadJane said:
Few groups conform to gender norms as faithfully as trans ideologists. Their "identities" are 100% dependent on conservative sexist stereotypes of what a man or a women should be and how they should or shouldn't behave.
Click to expand...

I appreciate you sharing your feelings.
 
She's quite right. For them, "woman" is a costume. A role-playing game. To the point where they expect women to perform it too, and mock us for not "doing woman" as well as they do.
 
Rolfe said:
She's quite right. For them, "woman" is a costume. A role-playing game. To the point where they expect women to perform it too, and mock us for not "doing woman" as well as they do.
Click to expand...

Maybe they need your list of how to be a woman. The dos and don’ts. A finishing school with certificates even! Fake it until you make it they say.

And how are the new men going do you think?


So often this ******** floats to the surface in the lull between earnest discussion about where we piss and **** and fairness in sports.
 
Last edited:
Aber said:
Gender GP Michael Webberley erased from the medical register
Click to expand...

This is an interesting thread on the relationships between the Webberley's, Mermaids, and other trans lobby groups (and even the NHS), showing that the Webberley's were endorsed by the establishment and their conduct was in line with what is being pushed by activists.

'So no, the Webberleys aren't outliers. They're the secret mainstream; providing what, in effect, Stonewall, and the other lobby groups, argue should be the standard NHS approach: every child's fantasy should be affirmed, parents ignored, mental health checks scrapped.'
 
Sideroxylon said:
Maybe they need your list of how to be a woman. The dos and don’ts.
Click to expand...


Easy. Be conceived as a zygote which does not have a functional SRY gene, or, very rarely, which has such a gene but has no functional androgen receptor provision. Survive until adulthood.

Whoopee, you're a woman. Congratulations.
 
Rolfe said:
Easy. Be conceived as a zygote which does not have a functional SRY gene, or, very rarely, which has such a gene but has no functional androgen receptor provision. Survive until adulthood.

Whoopee, you're a woman. Congratulations.
Click to expand...

Come on! I wanted to hear how they are getting their “role playing” wrong. While you are at it. Explain where you get off judging their sincerity or even someone’s right to dare to behave performatively in public.

This isn't about toilets and sports.

Edited by jimbob: 
rule 12 edited out
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sideroxylon said:
Come on! I wanted to hear how they are getting their “role playing” wrong. While you are at it. Explain where you get off judging their sincerity or even someone’s right to dare to behave performatively in public.

This isn't about toilets and sports.
Click to expand...

It isn't? I think it is. At least, it ought to be. Don't forget locker rooms, other sorts of changing rooms, and prisons, but yes, it really is about toilets and sports.

ETA: A whole lot of other things get dragged into it, like pronouns and such, but the only reason that sort of thing matters is that some people are concerned that if you give in on pronouns, people demand that you give in on toilets and sports. Rolfe once posted a link to an essay entitled, as I recall, "Pronouns as rohypnol".
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom