Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[BobTheCoward]

OK, but you have done that by adopting a notion of "women" that was invented 5 minutes ago, and rejecting the notion that has persisted for thousands of years. It's not like a definition can be "true". Rolfe's idea of what "women" means, or my idea, or even yours aren't wrong, they are just different. If you are indifferent to things like kindness, what induced you to choose this new definition?

What determines anyone's choice of a definition?

 

[Puppycow]

Wow, has anyone seen the new Ricky Gervais comedy special on Netflix?

He's apparently stirred the hornet's nest. I'm watching it now.

I think it just dropped within the last day or two, but for some reason Netflix didn't show it on the top page even though their algorithm must know I would want to see it.

 

[shuttlt]

What determines anyone's choice of a definition?

That's their choice.

 

[Rolfe]

Wow, has anyone seen the new Ricky Gervais comedy special on Netflix?

He's apparently stirred the hornet's nest. I'm watching it now.

I think it just dropped within the last day or two, but for some reason Netflix didn't show it on the top page even though their algorithm must know I would want to see it.

I saw a clip of it, in which as far as I can see he merely quoted trans activists words verbatim, resulting in him being accused of mocking the most oppressed group on the planet.

 

[Meadmaker]

I think we now have to distinguish between gender dysphoria and self-identification. Whether gender dysphoria occurs in people is an empirical question, just like whether happiness occurs in people. Medical science is the place to go to to see if it is a thing or not. AFAIK, medical science says that it is.

But self-ID is closer to attack helicopters than happiness. Self-ID is a position, not a condition.

I don't think there is any question about whether gender dysphoria is a real thing.


In my opinion, though, even the existence, or medical diagnosis, of gender dysphoria should not be sufficient to allow a man access to women's spaces or sports leagues.

This kind of gets to the same question of whether identity or practical issues should be prime. I get that there are men who identify as women, but I still think they need to compete against men in the swim meet.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Wow, has anyone seen the new Ricky Gervais comedy special on Netflix?

He's apparently stirred the hornet's nest. I'm watching it now.

I think it just dropped within the last day or two, but for some reason Netflix didn't show it on the top page even though their algorithm must know I would want to see it.

Seems like a rather low status target. In general, I think comedians should punch up if they are trying to take someone down a peg or two. His golden globes stuff was always great.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't think there is any question about whether gender dysphoria is a real thing.

In my opinion, though, even the existence, or medical diagnosis, of gender dysphoria should not be sufficient to allow a man access to women's spaces or sports leagues.

Exactly. Gender dysphoria is a real thing. I hear quite heartrending tales of suffering. These people need competent, sympathetic help. However, women's intimate spaces are not a therapy tool to manage men's psychological issues.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I don't think there is any question about whether gender dysphoria is a real thing.


In my opinion, though, even the existence, or medical diagnosis, of gender dysphoria should not be sufficient to allow a man access to women's spaces or sports leagues.

This kind of gets to the same question of whether identity or practical issues should be prime. I get that there are men who identify as women, but I still think they need to compete against men in the swim meet.

I think you mean some other word than practical. Because saying women can compete in women's sports is a practical solution....it is happening right now.

 

[shuttlt]

Seems like a rather low status target. In general, I think comedians should punch up if they are trying to take someone down a peg or two. His golden globes stuff was always great.

The problem is that comedy is about taking a poke at sacred cows. Claims of victimhood are a sacred cow in this society, tremendous power can be wielded by claiming to be a victim. That power has destroyed careers and livelihoods of people who oppose it. It is paradoxical when something can be powerful, and simultaneously protected because it is powerless.

 

[shuttlt]

Exactly. Gender dysphoria is a real thing. I hear quite heartrending tales of suffering. These people need competent, sympathetic help. However, women's intimate spaces are not a therapy tool to manage men's psychological issues.

Why do you hate change, Rolfe? You are stuck at stage 2. How do you expect to get better if you resist moving on to acceptance?

 

[BobTheCoward]

The problem is that comedy is about taking a poke at sacred cows. Claims of victimhood are a sacred cow in this society, tremendous power can be wielded by claiming to be a victim. That power has destroyed careers and livelihoods of people who oppose it. It is paradoxical when something can be powerful, and simultaneously protected because it is powerless.

It literally isn't a sacred cow. A congressman literally just decided to accuse a shooter of being transgender based on a fake picture as some very strange form of libel and will not face consequences for it.

Transgender people are literally victimized for being transgendered.

 

[shuttlt]

It literally isn't a sacred cow. A congressman literally just decided to accuse a shooter of being transgender based on a fake picture as some very strange form of libel and will not face consequences for it.

Transgender people are literally victimized for being transgendered.

Of course it's a sacred cow. People freak out if you say that "woman is an adult human female" and prostrate themselves before the trans-lobby. It's crybullying.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Of course it's a sacred cow. People freak out if you say that "woman is an adult human female" and prostrate themselves before the trans-lobby. It's crybullying.

Why does that make something a sacred cow? That people who care about the issue care about the issue?

ETA: A sacred cow is literally something decreed to be sacred by someone speaking for divinity. Cows are sacred in Hinduism by edict. I know you don't like the reasoning used by transgendered advocates...but it follows from a value system not nested in decree.

 

[shuttlt]

Why does that make something a sacred cow? That people who care about the issue care about the issue?

When something can't be criticised or joked about because of how much people care about the thing, it is pretty definitionally a sacred cow.

ETA: A sacred cow is literally something decreed to be sacred by someone speaking for divinity. Cows are sacred in Hinduism by edict. I know you don't like the reasoning used by transgendered advocates...but it follows from a value system not nested in decree.

That isn't how the word is used. You don't need the Pope, or the President, or indeed anybody in authority to specifically say that something can't be criticised for it to be a sacred cow. All that is needed is for their air to be filled with screeching when you do criticise it.

 

[BobTheCoward]

When something can't be criticised or joked about because of how much people care about the thing, it is pretty definitionally a sacred cow.


That isn't how the word is used. You don't need the Pope, or the President, or indeed anybody in authority to specifically say that something can't be criticised for it to be a sacred cow. All that is needed is for their air to be filled with screeching when you do criticise it.

....do you think what happens in certain parts of India if you kill a sacred cow is people screech?

You think screeching means you can't do something?

 

[shuttlt]

....do you think what happens in certain parts of India if you kill a sacred cow is people screech?

You think screeching means you can't do something?

You certainly can do such things, radical freedom and all that. People are sometimes attacked or killed for criticising sacred cows as well.... so one would have to take that into account.

 

[Aber]

Gender GP Michael Webberley erased from the medical register

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1713nEfKhB39s3LUHKsDgzxORkvoqMQWr/edit

Aggravating factors

This case involved findings of failure to provide good clinical care in relation to 24 patients over a sustained period of approximately two years. The facts proved covered a wide range of failures in the provision of care to these patients, as identified in the Tribunal’s finding on impairment.

The androgen patients and the transgender patients were put at risk of serious harm by Dr Webberley’s actions. Although there was evidence that with regard to the androgen patients some had experienced symptoms of androgen toxicity, the Tribunal acknowledged that it had not been alleged, much less had the Tribunal determined, that any of the patients had suffered serious harm.

A number of the transgender patients were vulnerable by reason of their age and/or mental health.

The Tribunal’s findings included findings of dishonesty in relation to the consenting of the androgen patients, in that Dr Webberley had dishonestly given false information regarding the condition he was purporting to treat and made untruthful statements as to the risks he said were associated with the patients not receiving treatment. To this extent, Dr Webberley’s dishonesty was directly related to his practice of medicine and was conduct that would inevitably undermine the public’s trust in the profession.

Mitigating factors

The Tribunal acknowledged and had regard to the fact that, before his retirement from the NHS in 2016, Dr Webberley was an experienced Consultant Physician of 24 years standing and 34 years of service to the NHS. It had regard to the fact that Dr Webberley had no previous proceedings brought against him by his regulator or any disciplinary findings made against him.

 

[BobTheCoward]

You certainly can do such things, radical freedom and all that. People are sometimes attacked or killed for criticising sacred cows as well.... so one would have to take that into account.

Yes, if there are leaders asking who would rid themselves of these comedians, I would agree with you.

 

[shuttlt]

Yes, if there are leaders asking who would rid themselves of these comedians, I would agree with you.

That's not how the word is used though. It's not how the NYT use it, it's not how WaPo use it..... it's not how the word is used.

 

[BobTheCoward]

That's not how the word is used though. It's not how the NYT use it, it's not how WaPo use it..... it's not how the word is used.

....you mentioned attacked and killing. As I said, I will care, once this sacred cow actually gets treated like the others.