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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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SuburbanTurkey said:
Of course, it's already been pointed out that nobody gives the slightest concern when that same 15 year old girl expresses similar objections to changing in front of their same-sex peers.

I would say that it's quite right to respect people's demands for bodily autonomy and modesty concerns, but sex-segregated spaces as commonly implemented obviously do not accomplish this.
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Male perspective: Well, if young females get naked in front of other females, then young males should be allowed to see them!
 
To repeat another thing already said lots of times.

I assmed, when younger, that modesty would be a much smaller deal in the future (i.e. now). I thought that with the explosion of pornography, increased nudity being allowed in film and television, and general liberalization of sexual attitudes, people would become less averse to removing their clothes in the presence of other people, including the opposite sex. I have been surprised that the exact opposite has occurred. Even as they consume more media products featuring naked people, their own aversion to people seeing them naked has increased, even toward their own sex. It is, indeed, only the old men who will sit around and chat while naked, or cross the locker room toward the showers with only a towel, placed over their shoulder.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I don't think it was ever quiet, was it? The adversaries of the TERF agenda are not shy it.
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You're right, they are not. They feel quite justified in threatening and harassing those who don't bow to their demands. They feel entitled to attack and intimidate, especially when they're attacking and intimidating females.

They feel perfectly fine demanding that females "be nice" and give them what they want, while not feeling the slightest bit of human decency toward females at all.
 
Meadmaker said:
To repeat another thing already said lots of times.

I assmed, when younger, that modesty would be a much smaller deal in the future (i.e. now). I thought that with the explosion of pornography, increased nudity being allowed in film and television, and general liberalization of sexual attitudes, people would become less averse to removing their clothes in the presence of other people, including the opposite sex. I have been surprised that the exact opposite has occurred. Even as they consume more media products featuring naked people, their own aversion to people seeing them naked has increased. It is, indeed, only the old men who will sit around and chat while naked, or cross the locker room toward the showers with only a towel, placed over their shoulder.
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Americans react to nudity very differently to some European countries. It may well be the heady mix of porn and religious conservatism. A side note and not to dismiss how people feel about modesty in change rooms.
 
Emily's Cat said:
You're right, they are not. They feel quite justified in threatening and harassing those who don't bow to their demands. They feel entitled to attack and intimidate, especially when they're attacking and intimidating females.

They feel perfectly fine demanding that females "be nice" and give them what they want, while not feeling the slightest bit of human decency toward females at all.
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Many peer reviewed studies show that TERF tears have the highest saline content, though causation is yet to be determined.
 
Meadmaker said:
To repeat another thing already said lots of times.

I assmed, when younger, that modesty would be a much smaller deal in the future (i.e. now). I thought that with the explosion of pornography, increased nudity being allowed in film and television, and general liberalization of sexual attitudes, people would become less averse to removing their clothes in the presence of other people, including the opposite sex. I have been surprised that the exact opposite has occurred. Even as they consume more media products featuring naked people, their own aversion to people seeing them naked has increased, even toward their own sex. It is, indeed, only the old men who will sit around and chat while naked, or cross the locker room toward the showers with only a towel, placed over their shoulder.
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Maybe for adults, but as far as I can tell nervousness of teenagers about their bodies (especially in the context of their often vicious peers) is a pretty common experience throughout the ages.

Considering the string of sex abuse scandals over the last few decades involving children, I don't think it's a bad plan to reconfigure assumptions and prioritize individual consent and bodily autonomy, rather than authority figures making assumptions about what is acceptable.
 
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theprestige said:
The "self-identity versus public policy" question not getting answered the way you'd hoped?
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Public policy over modesty, sexual harassment in toilets? Plenty of ways to deal and not the identity question denied in the title and by peoples arguments here.
 
Sideroxylon said:
Why are you asking a the specific question about kids?
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You made a comparison with "Climate change deniers", ie science deniers. I am asking you a question about the science behind the concept of "trans kids", a concept that, IMO, like climate change denial, is not supported by science.
 
I remember being in a swimming club when I was a year or two pre-puberty. I was the youngest member. We got changed in an open room with no privacy at all, in marked contrast to the public swimming sessions, where individual cubicles were provided alongside the pool, which everyone used.

All the members were young - maybe up into early 20s, but no more. All were fit and athletic. Nobody tried to hide their body at all when changing. I was regarded as cute for my ten-year-old performance of the naked twist. I found it quite educational. I got a very good look at a cross-section of female bodies that were older than mine, and so a very good idea of the general way mine was likely to change in the fairly near future.

Would a good look at a cross-section of naked male bodies ranging from ten to early twenties have been a positive development in the middle of all that? Someone is going to say yes, and point to Finland or something, but personally I'm pretty glad that wasn't part of the learning experience. The guys had their own room. What was under the swimming trunks was left to my imagination.
 
JihadJane said:
You made a comparison with "Climate change deniers", ie science deniers. I am asking you a question about the science behind the concept of "trans kids", a concept that, IMO, like climate change denial, is not supported by science.
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What are some of these arguments behind the concept of trans kids that you find controversial? Is childhood gender dysphoria not a real thing being explored by science?
 
Rolfe said:
I remember being in a swimming club when I was a year or two pre-puberty. I was the youngest member. We got changed in an open room with no privacy at all, in marked contrast to the public swimming sessions, where individual cubicles were provided alongside the pool, which everyone used.

All the members were young - maybe up into early 20s, but no more. All were fit and athletic. Nobody tried to hide their body at all when changing. I was regarded as cute for my ten-year-old performance of the naked twist. I found it quite educational. I got a very good look at a cross-section of female bodies that were older than mine, and so a very good idea of the general way mine was likely to change in the fairly near future.

Would a good look at a cross-section of naked male bodies ranging from ten to early twenties have been a positive development in the middle of all that? Someone is going to say yes, and point to Finland or something, but personally I'm pretty glad that wasn't part of the learning experience. The guys had their own room. What was under the swimming trunks was left to my imagination.
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Maybe if one had a penis and breasts and nobody cared you wouldn't be arguing in this thread?
 
Emily's Cat said:
:mad:

We tried compromise. We already had compromise. This is ridiculous, TomB. You're in here lecturing those of us who have attempted compromise, have attempted reasoned rational discussion, and have tried to have open discourse of the consequences and the impact. We are not the ******* problem. We are NOT the ones screaming "no debate" and harassing people out of jobs and out of social life, threatening them with rape and death, and stopping them from having rallies or events to support their cause.

Right now, I really think that the real problem is that one side refuses to be nice, and the other side - the rational sane side - is fed up to the gills with being told to "be nice" by people who aren't being directly affected.

I'm done with being nice. It's a failed strategy. I can be civil most definitely. But the opportunity for nice is long gone. It was gone when TRAs started showing up to harass and physically attack females marching to raise awareness of VAWG. It was gone when TRAs started getting rape and domestic shelters shut down because anything being single-sex was unacceptable. It was gone when rape victims were told to "reframe their trauma" so that the feelings of male medical examiners weren't hurt by victims who wanted to have a female doctor attend to their intimate exam. It was gone when male prisoners with histories of sex offenses against females started being placed into female prisons on nothing more than magic words. It was gone when lesbians started being told that their single-sex attraction was bigoted and transphobic, and that they need to educate themselves on how to accept penises into their vaginas.

I'm sorry, but compromise is not possible when dealing with religious zealots.
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The problem is that the only "sides" that get heard on either side are the radicals. Meanwhile the non-radical people on the other side get curb-stomped by one side reacting to the other side's radicals and then curb-stomped again by those radicals who claim to be on their side for not being "pure" enough and willing to compromise.

Put simply, the radicals on both sides are hurting the reasonable people in the middle. It's my opinion that there are many more people in the middle ground than there are on the extremes. Most of them just aren't as loud. And both sides feel free to kick them if they speak up.

There has been no election deciding who gets to represent and express the views of trans people. And I've read a lot of writing and watched a lot of videos from trans people that are generally much closer to your position than to Suburban Turkey's position. (They just don't get the headlines because...well...reasonable never does.) These people do understand and respect your concerns and would like to find a way to address their issues without compromising yours. Their voices aren't heard because the radicals...the absolutists...are too busy shouting at each other to pay attention.
 
TomB said:
The problem is that the only "sides" that get heard on either side are the radicals. Meanwhile the non-radical people on the other side get curb-stomped by one side reacting to the other side's radicals and then curb-stomped again by those radicals who claim to be on their side for not being "pure" enough and willing to compromise.

Put simply, the radicals on both sides are hurting the reasonable people in the middle. It's my opinion that there are many more people in the middle ground than there are on the extremes. Most of them just aren't as loud. And both sides feel free to kick them if they speak up.
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What do the reasonable people think?

TomB said:
There has been no election deciding who gets to represent and express the views of trans people.
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There never is for this kind of thing. Representatives for minorities are pretty much always chosen in this way.

TomB said:
And I've read a lot of writing and watched a lot of videos from trans people that are generally much closer to your position than to Suburban Turkey's position. (They just don't get the headlines because...well...reasonable never does.) These people do understand and respect your concerns and would like to find a way to address their issues without compromising yours. Their voices aren't heard because the radicals...the absolutists...are too busy shouting at each other to pay attention.
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Personally, I like Rolfe's solution (I hope I am remembering this correctly) that trans-women do not get a right to women's spaces, but an effort is made to be kind and tolerate them so long as they are discrete, are respectful of women's fears, and don't stand with their penises out in front of little girls.

Effectively this was the situation until a few years ago.
 
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