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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Stop with the name-calling.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha
 
Jerry Coyne covering a case in California where the ACLU is arguing that there is no physical differences between males and females...


The article also covers 'spin' in a quite effective way.


Here we have three articles about a suit filed against the State of California by four female prison inmates who claim violation of their rights by transgender women who were moved to women’s prison’s by a recent California law, SB-132. The first article is by the ACLU, the second by the feminist organization WoLF (“Women’s Liberation Front”) which opposes transsexual women in women’s prisons, and the third by USSA News, a right-wing organization. Read for yourself; the story is pretty much the same, though spun in different ways by different organizations.
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https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/05/16/in-a-california-case-aclu-and-co-litigants-claim-that-there-are-no-biological-differences-between-men-and-women
 
Emily's Cat said:
ACLU has completely lost the plot.
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Agreed, they've accepted this idea:


"Free speech is the right to educated speech. If you utilize your right to 'freedom of speech' but then are socially or politically apathetic, you don't vote, educate yourself on social issues, if you are not involved in the community, if you are not involved in being a citizen, an educated citizen, you have no right to free speech."
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Unidentified Canadian Student, C. 2012


And from The Atlantic, an article arguing that this kind of activism could cause the Abortion Debate to end with the wrong people (e.g. the Right) winning because...


Say what you like about the ACLU; it knows how to get people talking. But not necessarily in terms favorable to the ACLU. Late last month, the civil-liberties organization was revealed to have ghostwritten Amber Heard’s contentious Washington Post op-ed about suffering from domestic violence; the article was timed to coincide with the release of her film Aquaman. And on May 11, the ACLU once again caught the moment, posting a tweet that perfectly encapsulates a new taboo on the American left: a terrible aversion to using the word women.

According to the ACLU,

Abortion bans disproportionately harm:

■ Black, Indigenous & other people of color

■ the LGBTQ community

■ immigrants

■ young people

■ those working to make ends meet

■ people with disabilities
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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-debate-women-gender-neutral-language/629863/
 
Graham2001 said:
And from The Atlantic, an article arguing that this kind of activism could cause the Abortion Debate to end with the wrong people (e.g. the Right) winning because...



https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-debate-women-gender-neutral-language/629863/
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An acerbic quote from the Atlantic article:

To a casual reader, though, the ACLU has used phrasing that reads like an incantation—a list of disadvantaged groups that are more interesting than women. There’s something of the record-store hipster about it all: I care about groups with intersecting oppressions you haven’t even heard of.
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Emily's Cat said:
ACLU has completely lost the plot.
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Yep. And a pity too. The Skokie case had a profound effect on my attitudes at the time, about the importance of free speech for everyone.

They seem to have gone in just the.opposite direction.
 
Okay so I have a serious, legit, no-snark question because even after all this time I'm still trying to find a vein to really hit here.

Person A says. "I am a man/woman."

Give me a scenario where they are wrong. Something with a toe in reality would be nice, but even something purely conceptual as long as it's an actual answer would do.

Because if there isn't one, that's raises question.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Okay so I have a serious, legit, no-snark question because even after all this time I'm still trying to find a vein to really hit here.

Person A says. "I am a man/woman."

Give me a scenario where they are wrong. Something with a toe in reality would be nice, but even something purely conceptual as long as it's an actual answer would do.

Because if there isn't one, that's raises question.
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When they say they are a woman but they are obviously a man or vice-versa? I mean, if person A says they are 7'2" and you can see they are actually of normal height, are they wrong?
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Okay so I have a serious, legit, no-snark question because even after all this time I'm still trying to find a vein to really hit here.

Person A says. "I am a man/woman."

Give me a scenario where they are wrong. Something with a toe in reality would be nice, but even something purely conceptual as long as it's an actual answer would do.

Because if there isn't one, that's raises question.
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Unfalsifiability is not a bug, it's a feature.
 
World Swimming Coaches Association issues position against inclusion of trans athletes

The headline is, as usual in these cases, not correct. Nobody is proposing to exclude trans athletes from any sport. They are proposing to exclude biological males from women's events, which is somewhat different.

“For the sport of swimming, the inclusion of transgender people on the grounds of fairness cannot co-exist in the current competitive model,” read the statement. “Swimming should choose to offer competition in which the female category is protected for reasons of competitive fairness.”

The group suggested that it was necessary to introduce a new and different model in the sport as an alternative option to meet the needs of trans athletes. It stated that categorization through birth sex “remains to be the most useful and function division relative to sporting performance.”
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This has interesting ramifications, because it drives a coach and horses through the TRA objective of having trans people treated and accepted as full members of the sex they aren't without any distinction whatsoever. If this goes through, and I think in some form it must, eventually, all we need to know is which swimming events you'd be eligible to compete in, and we can name your sex accurately.
 
Rolfe said:
World Swimming Coaches Association issues position against inclusion of trans athletes

The headline is, as usual in these cases, not correct. Nobody is proposing to exclude trans athletes from any sport. They are proposing to exclude biological males from women's events, which is somewhat different.




This has interesting ramifications, because it drives a coach and horses through the TRA objective of having trans people treated and accepted as full members of the sex they aren't without any distinction whatsoever. If this goes through, and I think in some form it must, eventually, all we need to know is which swimming events you'd be eligible to compete in, and we can name your sex accurately.
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Interesting choice of source here lol.

Rebel News (also known as The Rebel Media and The Rebel) is a Canadian far-right[2] political and social commentary media website operated by Rebel News Network Ltd. It has been described as a "global platform" for the anti-Muslim ideology known as counter-jihad.[3][4][5] It was founded in February 2015 by former Sun News Network personalities Ezra Levant and Brian Lilley.

Rebel News broadcasts its content only on the internet and is sometimes cast as Canada's version of Breitbart News.[6][7][8] Rebel News has been described as being part of the alt-right movement.[9]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebel_News

Edited by xjx388: 
<SNIP>
Rule 12
 
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Shepherd said:
SuburbanTurkey, here is a link to an article about it in Swimming World Magazine.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.c...ion-fairness-cannot-coexist-in-current-model/
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Seems a thoughtful approach to a very thorny problem.

The most immediate thing that jumps out to me is that the separate trans men and trans women categories would be extremely small, perhaps to the point of not being meaningfully competitive. The trans population is quite small, and trans athletes are even smaller fraction of that. Even if you assume growing trans acceptance and more people (especially young people) feel comfortable living "out", I would assume there's a very low cap for how many trans athletes there will ever be.

This is less of an issue for swimming, which is primarily an individual sport, compared to team sports, but an issue worth considering. The paper's comments about paralympics strikes me as a bit hand-wavy.

This is an interesting policy proposal nonetheless, I'm curious what others in the sport and trans activism will have to say about it.
 
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