Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[TomB]

I'm not convinced they need a working understanding of sexuality at all at that age.

Hmmm....

Is it a "working understanding of sexuality" to understand that some families have two female parents and some have two male parents?

To my way of thinking, that is not really a sexuality issue at that age any more than the general understanding of male and female parents is. You don't have to discuss the sexuality of a couple to discuss that they have a relationship.

 

[TomB]

This is a very thoughtprovoking article about "social transition" of children.

A childhood is not reversible

See, the problem with articles like this from either side is they tell the horror story of either inappropriate treatment or unavailable treatment. But it all comes down to the same thing.

Those children who are not trans and do not need to transition should not be prescribed transition.

Those who are trans and would benefit with transitioning will generally benefit with treatment which begins as early as possible.

The problem isn't one of "childhood transition bad" or "childhood transition good." It's a problem of coming up with an accurate (and non-self-fulfilling) diagnosis.

Instead of pushing for or against specific treatments, either side would do better to push for better research and understanding to allow for better diagnosis earlier.

 

[Rolfe]

I read that a while back, and it's an excellent piece. I think this sums it up as well:

Yes, I could have picked that quote too. It's only common sense.

It's been common for a long time for tomboy girls to dress as boys and play boys' games and even be called by boys' names. Enid Blyton put several of them into her children's books - she knew her readership and knew that girls like that read adventure stories and would like to see themselves in them. Even before that, Jo in the Chalet School books was another example.

What did not happen was that anyone told these girls they actually were boys. They just let them get on with it and called them George or Jo and cleaned up their muddy knees and occasionally forced them into a dress and a hair ribbon for special occasions. Some of them grew up to be lesbians but many of them didn't. They all sorted themselves out as they grew up, because they were never told lies or led to believe that the impossible was possible.

I was one of them.

 

[Rolfe]

Those who are trans and would benefit with transitioning will generally benefit with treatment which begins as early as possible.

Evidence?

First, I don't believe in this "true trans" person everyone keeps going on about. There are people with various mental disorders that manifest as a desire to become the opposite sex, but that's not quite the same thing.

Second, I don't believe anyone can predict which gender nonconforming children will grow up to have a mental disorder that manifests as a desire to become the opposite sex, and I don't think they will be able to do that in the future.

Third, I do not believe there is any evidence of benefit from "treatment" which begins as early as possible. Everyone needs to go through natural puberty in order that their brains and their sex organs and really all of the rest of them transition to their adult forms properly. So what "treatment" are you going to offer "as early as possible" and where is the evidence that this is beneficial? Socially transitioning a child which then has to go through puberty of the sex it has been told it isn't seems perverse, and liable to go badly wrong. Far better to treat all gender nonconforming children the same - let them get on with it but don't pretend they are the sex they aren't.

Medical and surgical treatment pre-puberty are an abomination and even if you could be 100% sure a particular child was going to persist in wanting to change sex after puberty should still be contraindicated.

 

[Meadmaker]

For what it's worth, I don't think I would outlaw "social transition", but I'm not sure what that really means. The recent policy in Florida recommends against it as a "medical treatment", and I think I would too.

Would I ever let a girl caller herself "Bill" and be treated as a boy by the school faculty? Hmmm......very difficult question. To the extent that that could be done without violating the rights of other students, I think I would allow it.

Is that "medical treatment"? I don't even understand the terms anymore.

Puberty blockers and pre-pubescent drugs or surgery, including puberty blockers? Those are right out, if I get to make the rules.

 

[Ziggurat]

Hmmm....

Is it a "working understanding of sexuality" to understand that some families have two female parents and some have two male parents?

I wouldn't say so. But if kids encounter it, then they can learn it at that point. Schools don't really need to teach it.

 

[Ziggurat]

See, the problem with articles like this from either side is they tell the horror story of either inappropriate treatment or unavailable treatment. But it all comes down to the same thing.

Those children who are not trans and do not need to transition should not be prescribed transition.

Those who are trans and would benefit with transitioning will generally benefit with treatment which begins as early as possible.

The problem isn't one of "childhood transition bad" or "childhood transition good." It's a problem of coming up with an accurate (and non-self-fulfilling) diagnosis.

I'm not sure that's a tractable problem for pre-pubescent children. We certainly aren't close to figuring it out right now. Furthermore, I don't think there's actually much harm in not transitioning even truly trans children before puberty. But there's absolutely massive harm in transitioning children who shouldn't transition.

Instead of pushing for or against specific treatments, either side would do better to push for better research and understanding to allow for better diagnosis earlier.

I don' think that's possible under the current circumstances.

 

[Meadmaker]

I wouldn't say so. But if kids encounter it, then they can learn it at that point. Schools don't really need to teach it.

I think the problem with the Florida law is that it's vague enough that it is extremely unclear exactly how far a discussion could go before it becomes "teaching".

I seriously doubt anyone would be sued for saying, "Heather has two mommies", but if some other kid in the class says that her parents said that all kids have a mommy and a daddy, explaining the difference could land a teacher in hot water.

For trans issues, I can't imagine how anyone could even address the question, "Is Olivia really a girl?" while providing any meaningful information, but without violating the law. At the very least, they would have to worry about violating the law.

(That exact question came up once when I was driving a bunch of 10 year olds to a birthday party. I decided to just keep my mouth shut. I knew the kid was trans before she did, because she had never heard the word.)

 

[Rolfe]

Would I ever let a girl caller herself "Bill" and be treated as a boy by the school faculty? Hmmm......very difficult question. To the extent that that could be done without violating the rights of other students, I think I would allow it.

That's two very different things. I actually think one of Enid Blyton's tomboys was called Bill, including by her teachers.

However, she was never "treated as a boy" by the school, for the fairly simple reason that it was a girls-only school. But even if it had been mixed-sex, just NO. Call her Bill, let her wear boys' clothes and play boys' games, but do NOT refer to her as "he" or as a boy, or allow her to use the boys' lavatories. Ensure that everyone, including her, keeps the essential knowledge that this is a female child as the underpinning of everything they do.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's two very different things. I actually think one of Enid Blyton's tomboys was called Bill, including by her teachers.

People seem to have forgotten that tomboys are a thing, and that being a tomboy doesn't mean that you are a trans boy.

 

[Rolfe]

Come to think of it, I believe I saw some women complaining that in a very recent update or it might have been a film or something, Blyton's "Bill" was indeed transed.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Hmmm....

Is it a "working understanding of sexuality" to understand that some families have two female parents and some have two male parents?

To my way of thinking, that is not really a sexuality issue at that age any more than the general understanding of male and female parents is. You don't have to discuss the sexuality of a couple to discuss that they have a relationship.

I think this gets into fuzzy territory. I have no objection to a teacher answering a question raised by a child and informing them that some kids have two mommies or two daddies. Sometimes people of the same sex love each other too.

But that's different from a teacher having that as a part of classroom curriculum.

 

[Emily's Cat]

See, the problem with articles like this from either side is they tell the horror story of either inappropriate treatment or unavailable treatment. But it all comes down to the same thing.

Those children who are not trans and do not need to transition should not be prescribed transition.

Those who are trans and would benefit with transitioning will generally benefit with treatment which begins as early as possible.

The problem isn't one of "childhood transition bad" or "childhood transition good." It's a problem of coming up with an accurate (and non-self-fulfilling) diagnosis.
Instead of pushing for or against specific treatments, either side would do better to push for better research and understanding to allow for better diagnosis earlier.

Sure, on principle I agree with you completely. The barrier for me is the highlighted section. We simply do not have a means of obtaining an accurate diagnosis. Even for children who exhibit dysphoria at a very young age, and are consistent about it, persistence is only about 80% once they begin puberty - unless there is reinforcement through social transition or through medical intervention. At the end of the day, about 80% of the children who exhibited persistent dysphoria from a young age end up being homosexual once puberty hits and their sexuality develops.

So, given that we don't have accurate diagnoses, I err on the side of NOT sterilizing or permanently damaging the bodies of children.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, I could have picked that quote too. It's only common sense.

It's been common for a long time for tomboy girls to dress as boys and play boys' games and even be called by boys' names. Enid Blyton put several of them into her children's books - she knew her readership and knew that girls like that read adventure stories and would like to see themselves in them. Even before that, Jo in the Chalet School books was another example.

What did not happen was that anyone told these girls they actually were boys. They just let them get on with it and called them George or Jo and cleaned up their muddy knees and occasionally forced them into a dress and a hair ribbon for special occasions. Some of them grew up to be lesbians but many of them didn't. They all sorted themselves out as they grew up, because they were never told lies or led to believe that the impossible was possible.

I was one of them.

Lol, me too. Up to about age 5, I actually liked frilly fancy dresses, because they were special. My everyday outfits were trousers and t-shirts.

At age 6, however, I got a blue velveteen leisure suit and it was all over. It was pants all the time - and fancy pants for fancy occasions. I didn't really wear dresses or skirts again until high-school and college, when the desire to be sexually attractive to males kicked in. And by the time i finished college I was fairly well done with that. I have a couple of skirt suits for professional occasions where I expect the audience to be fairly conservative, and that's pretty much the only time I ever wear heels or make-up too.

Though, to be honest, the older I get the less inclined I am to bother with it. I have enough gray in my hair now that if they don't take me seriously about my area of expertise, that's on them and they're fools for it.

 

[Rolfe]

I see that thing that never happens has happened again.

Prominent Trans Activist Arrested on Charges of Sexually Abusing Teen Boy

It's quite jawdropping how many transactivists have been convicted of child sexual abuse, including one in Scotland who actually advised the authorities about unisex toilets. Is anyone still wondering why they're so keen on dropping all safeguarding and sexualising young people?

ETA: And this. https://twitter.com/Shatterface/status/1523799653468471296

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am constantly amazed at how often the things that never happen keep happening.

 

[TomB]

I'm not sure that's a tractable problem for pre-pubescent children. We certainly aren't close to figuring it out right now.

Well, exactly. Which is why we need more research. If it were possible to empirically diagnose the condition it would make things much clearer. Unfortunately we are talking psychology, so it's hard.

Furthermore, I don't think there's actually much harm in not transitioning even truly trans children before puberty. But there's absolutely massive harm in transitioning children who shouldn't transition.

Obviously, there's massive harm to transitioning kids who shouldn't transition.
But I don't think it's clear that the highlighted is correct. Mostly because you are asking people with dysphoria to put their related issues on hold until some magical age, and as a consequence you are also forcing them to wait to transition until the point where for most of them their body develops to a point where they will always appear as an other. And I'm talking with their clothes on.

I don' think that's possible under the current circumstances.

It's always possible to do research.

 

[TomB]

People seem to have forgotten that tomboys are a thing, and that being a tomboy doesn't mean that you are a trans boy.

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that most people on the trans side think that tomboys are trans.

 

[TomB]

Sure, on principle I agree with you completely. The barrier for me is the highlighted section. We simply do not have a means of obtaining an accurate diagnosis. Even for children who exhibit dysphoria at a very young age, and are consistent about it, persistence is only about 80% once they begin puberty - unless there is reinforcement through social transition or through medical intervention. At the end of the day, about 80% of the children who exhibited persistent dysphoria from a young age end up being homosexual once puberty hits and their sexuality develops.

So, given that we don't have accurate diagnoses, I err on the side of NOT sterilizing or permanently damaging the bodies of children.

And I can respect that position. Personally, I'm not a fan of early medical transition. But I have to recognize that when the diagnosis is correct it is beneficial.

Hence my assertion that we need to work on a better definition and diagnosis of the condition. And that's what research should be addressing.

I would point out that while agree that medical transition does permanent damage to children incorrectly diagnosed as trans, there are negative consequences to going through puberty for those for whom being trans is a correct diagnosis:

• Body developing as the biological sex makes social transition in later life more difficult.
• The above developed body makes the status as a trans person more immediately obvious to everyone they encounter. (I'm not talking from a sexual attraction/dating perspective.) It becomes hard to not attract attention.
• The obviousness of the transition automatically makes them an "other" in most situations.
• All of the above makes it much harder to address the underlying dysphoria. Which can lead to depression.

Obviously, most of that is emotional damage as opposed to physical.

 

[TomB]

I see that thing that never happens has happened again.
Prominent Trans Activist Arrested on Charges of Sexually Abusing Teen Boy

It's quite jawdropping how many transactivists have been convicted of child sexual abuse, including one in Scotland who actually advised the authorities about unisex toilets. Is anyone still wondering why they're so keen on dropping all safeguarding and sexualising young people?

ETA: And this. https://twitter.com/Shatterface/status/1523799653468471296

Has anyone said that no trans people were sex offenders or child abusers? Is it really accurate to say that this is something that is said "never happens?"