The Roe Countdown

[JoeMorgue]

Hopefully without being too naive because America isn't so far gone that politics and this system and that system aside trying to shove through an attack on something supported by the majority of people in American will, hopefully, at some point actually have a backlash.

Nobody has screeched harder about the "noose is tightening, any day now" mentality on this board than me, but there's no possible political system were being intentionally unpopular to court to support of a minority can be long term sustainable.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How do you picture that happening? I'm not being smart-ass.

I contend that running on a clear action plan would probably do a lot more to drive out voters than the usual empty and vague statements.

Then again, the Dems have done bait-and-switch promises about protecting Roe so many times the party may have simply exhausted all credibility on the issue. There's definitely a cost to talking a big game during campaigns and repeatedly choosing not to deliver.

It strikes me that "if we get 60 senate seats we will pack the court/impeach/whatever other real solution" is a more compelling campaign line than vague and open-ended promises to "defend Roe"

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't see any evidence of that belief. I see no attempts to push through any amendments that might improve the constitution (probably because they can't get the public on their side).

Instead, they, like the right, are happy to simply stack the SC with judges that will "rule" they way they want. The problem is that the right beat them at this game.

Are you unaware of the Amendment process?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm still holding out a tiny bit of hope that the Interstate National Popular Vote Pact will happen.

 

[mumblethrax]

I don't see any evidence of that belief. I see no attempts to push through any amendments that might improve the constitution (probably because they can't get the public on their side).

Getting the public on your side is materially irrelevant to passing constitutional amendments. Many of the constitutional amendments the US has ratified have lacked popular support.

The reason nobody bothers today, beyond the odd bill intended to allow politicians to posture for their political base, is that it's utterly hopeless.

Instead, they, like the right, are happy to simply stack the SC with judges that will "rule" they way they want. The problem is that the right beat them at this game.

I'd say the problem is that we live in a juristocracy, with no formal relationship between the democratic institutions that we (don't) have and the political character of the country's highest law-making authority. Packing/stacking the courts is just a symptom of that problem.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Hopefully without being too naive because America isn't so far gone that politics and this system and that system aside trying to shove through an attack on something supported by the majority of people in American will, hopefully, at some point actually have a backlash.

Nobody has screeched harder about the "noose is tightening, any day now" mentality on this board than me, but there's political system were being intentionally unpopular to court to support of a minority can be long term sustainable.

If you want to be pessimistic, I contend there's a decent chance we're past the point of no return for electoral solutions. The current SCOTUS is pretty obviously going to radically re-write electoral law that makes elections a largely pro-forma exercise. The Republicans understand that they are a minortiarian party with a pretty obvious popularity cap, and the SCOTUS is going to rubber stamp any laws these states pass to ensure they never have to let go of power no matter what the voters say.

The **** coming down the pike is going to make Bush v Gore days seem like a vibrant democracy.

 

[Warp12]

If we get enough Senators in the mid-terms, it's time to add justices. I believe term limits would require a Constitutional amendment unlike the number of justices on the court.

I'd also like DC to get statehood. "Tough turtles Mitch, you started it." We don't have equal representation. That would be one partial fix.

"We didn't (or might not) get our way, so we need to stack the court".

I imagine this will come up every time there is a conservative-favoring ruling.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"We didn't (or might not) get our way, so we need to stack the court".

Said the side that can only win because they gerrymandered the entire country.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If you want to be pessimistic, I contend there's a decent chance we're past the point of no return for electoral solutions. The current SCOTUS is pretty obviously going to radically re-write electoral law that makes elections a largely pro-forma exercise. The Republicans understand that they are a minortiarian party with a pretty obvious popularity cap, and the SCOTUS is going to rubber stamp any laws these states pass to ensure they never have to let go of power no matter what the voters say.

The **** coming down the pike is going to make Bush v Gore seem like a vibrant democracy.

Yes we know and you can't wait for it to happen so your glorious progressive Utopia can rise from the ashes.

But there's no harm in trying. That's the good thing about points of no return you can fight right up until them and not lose anything.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

An interesting exploration on the difference between how Democrats and Republicans approach power:

https://www.gawker.com/politics/the-scourge-of-sentimentality-politics

Democrats have been outmaneuvered by the Republicans at every turn. It's well past time to start looking inward to fix why the party is so unfit for purpose.

I will offer a very general metaphor:

One group wants to provide their airline passengers with a smooth and safe flight, on time, with good food and an entertaining movie, and no lost luggage.

One group wants to crash the airplane into a skyscraper.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yes we know and you can't wait for it to happen so your glorious progressive Utopia can rise from the ashes.

The historical record does not show that "progressive Utopia" is the common outcome of such scenarios. The fact that centrist lib types reflexively scorn leftist types when confronted by the monstrosity of right wing authoritarian rule shows how easily these things can go down a dark path for people exactly like me.

When push comes to shove, libs will fall back on bootlicking rather than any principle of liberty they allegedly hold dear. A small minority will stick to their conscience and suffer horribly for it.

But there's no harm in trying. That's the good thing about points of no return you can fight right up until them and not lose anything.

There's definitely value in trying, at the very least the flagrant failure of democracy organizes and enrages the majority and hopefully steels them to appropriately respond to coming authoritarian crackdowns.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"We didn't (or might not) get our way, so we need to stack the court".

I imagine this will come up every time there is a conservative-favoring ruling.

And see this is what the Right is going to do. Cheat and steal and then clutch their pearls when the the sane, majority side of America does something that actually isn't against the system (the number of Justices appears exactly zero times in the Constitution so "stacking the courts" isn't actually a thing) so they can keep playing the victims.

 

[cosmicaug]

"We didn't (or might not) get our way, so we need to stack the court".

A tried and proven approach or we would not be talking about Roe vs. Wade having been overturned right now.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again yes side that stormed the Capital, got 4 people killed, and tried to stage a coup please lecture me more about going too far in politics. Please.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And see this is what the Right is going to do. Cheat and steal and then clutch their pearls when the the sane, majority side of America does something that actually isn't against the system (the number of Justices appears exactly zero times in the Constitution so "stacking the courts" isn't actually a thing) so they can keep playing the victims.

It's definitely worth noticing that, in the face of a once-in-a-generation victory for the conservative movement, it's all they can do but to cry about being the victims.

Aggrievement is the foundation of right wing political identity. No amount of success and domination will ever dent their false sense of victimhood.

 

[cosmicaug]

I will offer a very general metaphor:

One group wants to provide their airline passengers with a smooth and safe flight, on time, with good food and an entertaining movie, and no lost luggage.

One group wants to crash the airplane into a skyscraper.

That sounds like an awkwardly polarized scenario. Can we find a reasonable middle position that both sides can agree upon?

 

[JoeMorgue]

That sounds like an awkwardly polarized scenario. Can we find a reasonable middle position that both sides can agree upon?

I don't want to crash the plane, but my hands are tied because you can't show me where in the ticket agreement people aren't allowed to do that and the ticket agreement is a super-important and sacred document to me, now please excuse me while I go smoke in the bathroom.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's definitely worth noticing that, in the face of a once-in-a-generation victory for the conservative movement, it's all they can do but to cry about being the victims.

Aggrievement is the foundation of right wing political identity. No amount of success and domination will ever dent their false sense of victimhood.

Real talk.

Because politics is the new religion and they learned it from the Christians.

 

[Warp12]

It's definitely worth noticing that, in the face of a once-in-a-generation victory for the conservative movement, it's all they can do but to cry about being the victims.

Oh, there is some crying going on, all right.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Oh, there is some crying going on, all right.

And glib references to being at troll being the goal.

That's it, play all the hits.