Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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I'd hardly say a single opposing academic article is "clear" evidence.

I have to admit that doing deep dives into medical academic journals is not my specialty. I would assume there would have been some response to that paper seeing as it seems to have had very little impact in the way these many organizations are recommending care for trans adolescents, but I don't really have the inclination or experience to go through a tedious dive of the literature.

I suppose you could assume the lack of changing practice is the result of "corruption", but that's quite the leap of faith when more ordinary reasons seem more likely.

ETA: It seems Dr. Cantor's "Sexology Today" is little more than a personal blog, which might explain why his essay did not get much academic traction.

"That" paper?

Even Levine, in the article, acknowledged there were multiple papers. She questioned whether there were "many" or "a few", but she definitely said she had looked at "them".

Of course, "them" isn't always plural these days. Maybe it was one paper that identified as non-singular?
 
"That" paper?

Even Levine, in the article, acknowledged there were multiple papers. She questioned whether there were "many" or "a few", but she definitely said she had looked at "them".

Of course, "them" isn't always plural these days. Maybe it was one paper that identified as non-singular?

Perhaps I should not have replied to that post specifically. This line of thinking had me thinking about Dr. Cantor's "debunking" of the AAP policy statement, which was brought up in this thread much earlier.

To actually respond to your post:

Levine seems to be implying that Florida has cherry picked a fringe minority of papers that support their extremist view, rather than the consensus view of medical professionals.

Perhaps this fringe is on to something, perhaps they're a bunch of cranks. Levine's characterization, that the professional medical community does not support this extremist stance taken by Florida, seems correct. Broad guidance to forbid all gender affirming care for minors, including social transition, is quite the extreme policy.
 
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Levine seems to be implying that Florida has cherry picked a fringe minority of papers that support their extremist view, rather than the consensus view of medical professionals.

That's exactly what she's implying.

She is also implying that there is "a consensus view of medical professionals". She does that by saying "there is no argument". However, she's wrong. In fact, there is no consensus, and there's lots of argument.

Perhaps this fringe is on to something, perhaps they're a bunch of cranks. Levine's characterization, that the professional medical community does not support this extremist stance taken by Florida, seems correct. Broad guidance to forbid all gender affirming care for minors, including social transition, is quite the extreme policy.

And...there you go again.

Having presented nothing, you say that the doctors opposed to puberty blockers et. al. are either "fringe" or "cranks". When facts aren't on your side, use name calling.

To be fair, name calling seems more effective in shaping public opinion. It's sad, but it seems to be the way of the world.
 
That's exactly what she's implying.

She is also implying that there is "a consensus view of medical professionals". She does that by saying "there is no argument". However, she's wrong. In fact, there is no consensus, and there's lots of argument.



And...there you go again.

Having presented nothing, you say that the doctors opposed to puberty blockers et. al. are either "fringe" or "cranks". When facts aren't on your side, use name calling.

To be fair, name calling seems more effective in shaping public opinion. It's sad, but it seems to be the way of the world.

Florida's guidance goes beyond merely advising against puberty blockers. Blocking social transition as a form of medical care makes it quite clear that patient risks vs rewards is not driving this policy.
 
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(emphasis added)

Fair enough. Although I would argue lumping in "social transition" with more invasive forms of medicine under 'et al' is burying the lede in a way that isn't exactly in the best faith.

Perhaps you would concede that advising against "social transition" for minors is not exactly in the same league as having concerns about medical interventions. Surely you're not suggesting social transition accommodations carry similar risks as medical transition.

I think the state of Florida is going to have trouble finding a medical consensus to explain why this non-invasive, mild social intervention is so dangerous to adolescent patients to totally remove it from a doctor's discretion. One might even call this a fringe position.
 
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Fair enough. Although I would argue lumping in "social transition" with more invasive forms of medicine under 'et al' is burying the lede in a way that isn't exactly in the best faith.
(emphasis added)

I am so sick of that.



But...I agree that social transitioning is fundamentally different than medical transitioning.



Further elaboration will have to wait for a later time.
 
What exactly does social transitioning even consist of, in prepubescent children? Are there cromulent medical guidelines, written for K-5 educators, about what social transitioning means, and how to shepherd a child through that process without their parents' input?

Do modern American educators even have a consistent or coherent idea of what "gender" is, or what it means or why it matters to small children?
 
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Does anyone? At this point it's practically a Horoscope Sign.

Yes indeed. Raising very interesting questions about what trans-activists are even pushing for, why it's so goddamn important to push it on children without their parents' informed consent, and why Florida is literally Hitler for saying, "how about we don't do that?".
 
Florida's intent is obvious and malicious. You can't "well technically" contrarian that away.

One side being unclear doesn't make the other side right.
 
Florida's intent is obvious and malicious. You can't "well technically" contrarian that away.

One side being unclear doesn't make the other side right.

Fair enough. Leave Florida out of it. Why is anyone a "nazi" or a "transphobe", or a "TERF" for saying let's not have schoolteachers guiding kids through social transition without their parents' informed consent?
 
Does anyone? At this point it's practically a Horoscope Sign.

Hmmm.....maybe we should check birth charts to see if transgender people have an abnormally high number of births in periods where Mars and Venus are in conjunction.
 
Broad guidance to forbid all gender affirming care for minors, including social transition, is quite the extreme policy.

I don't think the Florida Surgeon General is able to forbid anything. As far as I can tell, the guidance is basically their recommendations, nothing more.

As for the HHS guidelines for sex-denying care, HHS repeats the lie that puberty blockers are reversible. They are not.
 
Yes indeed. Raising very interesting questions about what trans-activists are even pushing for, why it's so goddamn important to push it on children without their parents' informed consent, and why Florida is literally Hitler for saying, "how about we don't do that?".

I think the mentions of Florida on this page aren't about that legislation, but about a statement put out by the Florida Surgeon General, basically advising to not transition children. See my link in the previous post.
 
Fair enough. Although I would argue lumping in "social transition" with more invasive forms of medicine under 'et al' is burying the lede in a way that isn't exactly in the best faith.

Perhaps you would concede that advising against "social transition" for minors is not exactly in the same league as having concerns about medical interventions. Surely you're not suggesting social transition accommodations carry similar risks as medical transition.

I think the state of Florida is going to have trouble finding a medical consensus to explain why this non-invasive, mild social intervention is so dangerous to adolescent patients to totally remove it from a doctor's discretion. One might even call this a fringe position.

Now that I have more time.....


I'm going to start by calling attention to what you did there. I posted an article about Levine's comments, which said there was "no argument" about gender-affirming care, and I was critical of her for saying that. Either she is unaware of the argument, or she's lying. Either one is bad. As a professional in her position, she really ought to know better.

You're trying to turn this into somehow a question about whether banning social transition is extreme or not. It's a legitimate question, but not part of what the discussion had been about.


Be that as it may, is it extreme?

I can't think of a less interesting question. We would have to get into another definition argument. I care aboutn whether it's a good idea, or a bad idea. One related question is whether lots of people think it's a good idea, or lots of people think it's a bad idea, which could bear on the question of its "extreme" status, or not, depending on the definition of extreme, which I would find to be a boring discussion.

I think you can find plenty of people, including a fair number of medical professionals, who either support the guidelines or are lukewarm in their opposition to the guidelines. Does that have any bearing on it's "extremeness"? (Rhetorical question.)

But...getting back to the guidelines themselves. My first though was that it seemed like a bad idea to actually forbid social transitioning, but then I actually read the guidelines and realized that that characterization is misleading. What the guidelines forbid* is social transition as a medical treatment.


In other words, if someone wants to wear a dress, call themselves Julie and spend 150 dollars for a haircut, have at it. However, if a doctor recommends that as part of a treatment plan, the guidelines forbid it.

And, I'm undecided, but leaning toward saying that's ok.

You described it as "this non-invasive, mild social intervention". Well, if that's what it is, why is it part of a treatment plan anyway? It sounds more like "advice" than treatment. Ok, that's what psychologists, as opposed to psychiatrists, often do, so would it count as treatment if a patient says, "I think I'm really a boy" and the psychologist says, "Well, tell people to call you "Fred" and see how you like it." If it goes beyond that, then I suppose there are questions to be asked. To put it differently, I'm not sure exactly what is being forbidden by the guidelines.

I don't think the guidelines specify what clothes to wear, who to date, what pronouns to use, or, really, anything. They just say that whatever material you use for your underwear, it isn't medicine.


*I don't know actually whether the guidelines forbid anything. Are they rules, or suggestions? What happens to people who do things that the guidelines say they ought not do? I don't know. I'll just say "forbid", but I don't know if it's true in the legal sense.
 
I don't think the guidelines specify what clothes to wear, who to date, what pronouns to use, or, really, anything. They just say that whatever material you use for your underwear, it isn't medicine.

Mental health care often involves a variety of non-pharmaceutical strategies. Suggesting lifestyle changes to a patient complaining of gender dysphoria is obviously something a doctor might consider, just as a doctor might suggest lifestyle changes or coping skills for a variety of other mental health issues. Don't play dumb.


*I don't know actually whether the guidelines forbid anything. Are they rules, or suggestions? What happens to people who do things that the guidelines say they ought not do? I don't know. I'll just say "forbid", but I don't know if it's true in the legal sense.

I am also unclear on what authority this guidance carries. Texas has certainly laid out a path from declaration to enforcement. There's good reason to suspect that this is laying the groundwork to criminalizing or otherwise making unavailable trans affirming care in Florida as well.
 
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Fair enough. Leave Florida out of it. Why is anyone a "nazi" or a "transphobe", or a "TERF" for saying let's not have schoolteachers guiding kids through social transition without their parents' informed consent?

A very good question and I would like a reasonable response.
 
Fair enough. Leave Florida out of it. Why is anyone a "nazi" or a "transphobe", or a "TERF" for saying let's not have schoolteachers guiding kids through social transition without their parents' informed consent?

Impressive begging of the question. One for the ages.
 
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