Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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SuburbanTurkey said:
Not sure what world you live in where the motives of politicians are not relevant when evaluating policy.
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Pay better attention. Note the conditional. If an action is wrong, then it's wrong even if it's motivated by good.

You're appealing to motive because you don't have a case against the actions themselves. You want bad motives to do all the lifting for you, even in court.

I also note you still haven't come to terms with the fact that puberty blockers as administered for treatment of trans-identified children are not reversible.
 
I dont think we should teach our kids that they can simply change their gender, choose a different gender, like they choose which baseball team to support.
 
Rolfe said:
I just read on Twitter that Norway, one of the wokest countries on the planet, has just now put strict curbs on the provision of puberty blockers to children in their early teens. More and more authorities are starting to realise the serious harm being done to children by these things.
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Sensible decision.
Kids having puberty coming up,
'ooh I'm scared I don't want that to happen I don't know what it is. Oh look there's a thing that can stop it according to the internet? I want that!'
The above isn't going to work out well.

Let them decide post puberty about gender and what not. When they at least know what their choices are about.
 
I believe we should teach our kids that gender dysphoria exists, its a real phenomenon, but its not like a choice that people can simply flip a switch to turn on or off
 
p0lka said:
Sensible decision.
Kids having puberty coming up,
'ooh I'm scared I don't want that to happen I don't know what it is. Oh look there's a thing that can stop it according to the internet? I want that!'
The above isn't going to work out well.

Let them decide post puberty about gender and what not. When they at least know what their choices are about.
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I couldn't agree more.
 
Hercules56 said:
I believe we should teach our kids that gender dysphoria exists, its a real phenomenon, but its not like a choice that people can simply flip a switch to turn on or off
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How about we teach kids the truth, not a convenient story we made up.
 
Hercules56 said:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-when-a-child-can-change-gender-idUSKBN2080SI

In Canada, medical regulations state puberty blockers may be used for girls as young as 10-and-a-half and boys aged 11-and-a-half. Hormones may be administered to teenagers from the age 16.

I don't think this is a great idea. I don't think children can understand themselves at such a young age, to make such a choice.
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No, they can't. But Canada is well down the rabbit hole. Canadian women are currently scared and furious by turns because the Vanadian government is in the process of changing the legal definition of "woman" to something like "anyone who says they are".
 
Hercules56 said:
I believe we should teach our kids that gender dysphoria exists, its a real phenomenon, but its not like a choice that people can simply flip a switch to turn on or off
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This comment got me thinking. We teach kids simplified lies all the time. We do it in maths and science all the time. When you go to university you find all sorts of things you learned at school were simplified lies because the truth was too complicated, would have taken too long to explain, and would have only confused everybody.

Even if one supposes that gender dysphoria is "true". Is that a reason to teach it? We still teach Newtonian physics even though that has been known to be wrong for well over a century.
 
That's a point, I suppose. But I wonder if it has to be taught at all? Certainly, teaching about what really drives the vast majority of trans identities is probably not appropriate for school-age children.
 
Myriad said:
Once it's proven that a significant number of trans-care-providing doctors have been locked up for child abuse ex post facto style in Texas, then the policy can be revisited.

Just like for, you know, women being raped by self-declared trans women in women's prisons. Sauce for the goose, and all that.
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This is my favorite post of the day. Thank you Myriad.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It's interesting that you would describe the actual context of how anti-trans policies are being enacted as a "hobby horse".

Ok, pretend these policies only exist in some sterilized, debate-room format and not actually in real life with real consequences for people.
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It's not any less interesting than you describing the impact of those policies on female humans as fear-mongering, exaggerated, bigoted, and driven by animus. The same way that you consistently pretend that they are sterilized debate-room concepts and don't have real life consequences for real life female humans.
 
Rolfe said:
That's a point, I suppose. But I wonder if it has to be taught at all? Certainly, teaching about what really drives the vast majority of trans identities is probably not appropriate for school-age children.
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What I meant was you have the simplified version for 5 year olds of mummies and daddies. Sure, there are polyamorous furries, gender queer power bottoms, and bread and butter "Johnny has two dads". Just because all those things exist, doesn't mean kids need to be told about it and encouraged to consider where they might fit in to all of that. We routinely present kids with age appropriate simplified falsehoods.

It just seemed to me that some of the arguments in favour of teaching kids all this gender stuff is that it's true. Even if it is true, which I think is disputed, that isn't an argument for teaching it.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Not sure what world you live in where the motives of politicians are not relevant when evaluating policy. Sounds strange to me.
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What's strange would be sacrificing a good public policy because the people behind it were supporting it with the wrong motives.
 
shuttlt said:
This comment got me thinking. We teach kids simplified lies all the time. We do it in maths and science all the time. When you go to university you find all sorts of things you learned at school were simplified lies because the truth was too complicated, would have taken too long to explain, and would have only confused everybody.

Even if one supposes that gender dysphoria is "true". Is that a reason to teach it? We still teach Newtonian physics even though that has been known to be wrong for well over a century.
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Quibble: Newtonian physics isn't wrong, it's just incomplete. And that incompleteness only matters when you're either extremely small, or you're moving extremely fast, or near an extremely large gravitational source. Everything you do in everyday life is based on newtonian physics.
 
Paul2 said:
What's strange would be sacrificing a good public policy because the people behind it were supporting it with the wrong motives.
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What would be even stranger would be assuming that the people have the wrong motives because they're on a different political team, and then assuming that because their motives must (via assumption) be bad, the policy must also be a bad policy... and never actually bothering to consider the policy itself at all.
 
Must every discussion involve a bunch of people acting like Overton's Window is some incredibly new concept they have never heard of before?

Yes, we disagree on what topics belong in what spheres of public discourse. That's sort of the topic. Just treating "Free Speech" as a dump stat when it is convenient for your argument is just silly.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Fortunately this change in policy was so egregiously malicious that a court ordered enforcement to stop until the constitutional challenges are resolved. If I were to bet, nobody is going to be jailed by this because they are so openly malicious and unjust, but certainly this is not from a lack of trying.
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Good to know that the courts are willing to intervene to protect those people from unproven potential harm.

Too bad no one is being that proactive in protecting female prisoners from potential rape until sufficient proof of actual harm accumulates (if even then).
 
Emily's Cat said:
Quibble: Newtonian physics isn't wrong, it's just incomplete. And that incompleteness only matters when you're either extremely small, or you're moving extremely fast, or near an extremely large gravitational source. Everything you do in everyday life is based on newtonian physics.
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It makes predictions that are incorrect. It is wrong. I agree that under most circumstances it's wrongness is irrelevant. It's like when we are explaining mass and weight to children, we don't go on about the speed of light or weight and inertia being the same thing, or gravitons. We don't teach the truth, we teach true enough.
 
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