Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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JoeMorgue said:
Surely as time goes on countries will review, refresh, revisit, and refine both their vague cultural "view" and official "policies" as to transgenderism.

Regardless of your views on the subject eventually these ideas are going to actually have to be put into motion in the real world and we'll have to see what happens and doing that will require trial and error.

That's not (necessarily) a "reversal" when it happens.
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Indeed. Of course, anyone who tries to conflate the more strict policies of a place like Sweden with the deliberately and obviously animus-driven policies of US states like Texas is playing fast and loose with the facts.

Swedish medical authorities changing policy prescriptions about trans care and Texas arbitrarily deciding that trans affirming care is criminal child abuse that can be investigated retroactively really don't have much in common unless you view things through a very strange perspective.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Indeed. Of course, anyone who tries to conflate the more strict policies of a place like Sweden with the deliberately and obviously animus-driven policies of US states like Texas is playing fast and loose with the facts.

Swedish medical authorities changing policy prescriptions about trans care and Texas arbitrarily deciding that trans affirming care is criminal child abuse that can be investigated retroactively really don't have much in common unless you view things through a very strange perspective.
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All that Sweden and Texas have in common is that their policies on medical transition for minors are close to identical.
 
Meadmaker said:
All that Sweden and Texas have in common is that their policies on medical transition for minors are close to identical.
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I'm not aware of Sweden trying to lock anyone up for child abuse ex post facto style. I'm not sure why you chose to ignore this element, but it's quite significant.

Their policies on medical transition are in fact quite different.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I'm not aware of Sweden trying to lock anyone up for child abuse ex post facto style. I'm not sure why you chose to ignore this element, but it's quite significant.

Their policies on medical transition are in fact quite different.
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Once it's proven that a significant number of trans-care-providing doctors have been locked up for child abuse ex post facto style in Texas, then the policy can be revisited.

Just like for, you know, women being raped by self-declared trans women in women's prisons. Sauce for the goose, and all that.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Swedish medical authorities changing policy prescriptions about trans care and Texas arbitrarily deciding that trans affirming care is criminal child abuse that can be investigated retroactively really don't have much in common unless you view things through a very strange perspective.
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I want to elaborate a little bit.

The whole point about Sweden is that it is proof that opposition to medical transition for minors is NOT animus driven. No one in their right mind would say that Sweden is opposed to transgender, or more broadly, LGBT rights.

Is Gregg Abbott driven by animus in his zeal to prohibit puberty blockers and other treatments for children and teenagers? Probably. I certainly wouldn't argue the point, but I also don't care. I know that his politics are very important to you, and you think it's the most important thing, but that's your hobby horse. Plenty of other people are looking at medical treatments and their effects on people, and an awful lot of those people looking into it are saying that there needs to be curbs on those treatments.
 
I think the upshot of the trans-activist complaint is that not only is Texas doing the wrong thing, but it's doing it for the wrong reasons, and the same goes for Sweden.

But like the Russcists who needed a few weeks to reset their narrative after Putin actually invaded, and then the invasion went badly for him, the trans-activists will need some time to reset their narrative to include the unexpected perfidy from the usually-reliable and progressive Swedes.
 
Myriad said:
Once it's proven that a significant number of trans-care-providing doctors have been locked up for child abuse ex post facto style in Texas, then the policy can be revisited.

Just like for, you know, women being raped by self-declared trans women in women's prisons. Sauce for the goose, and all that.
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Fortunately this change in policy was so egregiously malicious that a court ordered enforcement to stop until the constitutional challenges are resolved. If I were to bet, nobody is going to be jailed by this because they are so openly malicious and unjust, but certainly this is not from a lack of trying.
 
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Meadmaker said:
I want to elaborate a little bit.

The whole point about Sweden is that it is proof that opposition to medical transition for minors is NOT animus driven. No one in their right mind would say that Sweden is opposed to transgender, or more broadly, LGBT rights.

Is Gregg Abbott driven by animus in his zeal to prohibit puberty blockers and other treatments for children and teenagers? Probably. I certainly wouldn't argue the point, but I also don't care. I know that his politics are very important to you, and you think it's the most important thing, but that's your hobby horse. Plenty of other people are looking at medical treatments and their effects on people, and an awful lot of those people looking into it are saying that there needs to be curbs on those treatments.
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It's interesting that you would describe the actual context of how anti-trans policies are being enacted as a "hobby horse".

Ok, pretend these policies only exist in some sterilized, debate-room format and not actually in real life with real consequences for people.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I'm not aware of Sweden trying to lock anyone up for child abuse ex post facto style. I'm not sure why you chose to ignore this element, but it's quite significant.
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I agree that retroactively criminalizing acts that were not crimes at the time they were committed is a bad idea.

What I'm curious about is if you think that's where the bad idea lies.

If you think that the kinds of treatments being banned in Texas would be child abuse, and therefore should be banned, then you and I are on the same page. If you think that people who sought out or prescribed those treatments for children before the ban should not be criminalized for having done so, then we're still on the same page.

It'll be fascinating if the trans-activist community actually produces a consensus that nobody wants trans-affirming treatments for prepubescent children, nobody in Texas is even trying to do that, and that the ban is scary looking but ultimately irrelevant.
 
theprestige said:
I agree that retroactively criminalizing acts that were not crimes at the time they were committed is a bad idea.

What I'm curious about is if you think that's where the bad idea lies.

If you think that the kinds of treatments being banned in Texas would be child abuse, and therefore should be banned, then you and I are on the same page. If you think that people who sought out or prescribed those treatments for children before the ban should not be criminalized for having done so, then we're still on the same page.

It'll be fascinating if the trans-activist community actually produces a consensus that nobody wants trans-affirming treatments for prepubescent children, nobody in Texas is even trying to do that, and that the ban is scary looking but ultimately irrelevant.
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Not sure what your point here considering Texas is banning all care for anyone under the age of 18.
 
In perfect honesty, I know next to nothing about the culture of Swedish medical policy making bodies. The only other thing I've ever heard about them is in this forum, where they decided to let covid run wild through their population and resulted in a much more intense and deadly pandemic than their Nordic neighbors. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of their judgement.

Whether this change is policy is the result of careful deliberation or just because they have another idiotic and destructive notion again is something I can't answer.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Indeed. Of course, anyone who tries to conflate the more strict policies of a place like Sweden with the deliberately and obviously animus-driven policies of US states like Texas is playing fast and loose with the facts.
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When you can't really criticize the actions of your opponents, go after their motives.
 
Ziggurat said:
When you can't really criticize the actions of your opponents, go after their motives.
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??

I'm pretty clearly impugning both their actions and motives. Texas is doing stupid and malicious things for animus based reasons. It's pretty obvious. That's kinda the whole point of throwing red meat to the bigoted base, it's not supposed to be subtle.

Whether or not it will be successful for Abbot and Paxton (especially him considering his pending corruption scandal) in fending off right wing primary challengers remains to be seen, but I'd guess yes.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
In perfect honesty, I know next to nothing about the culture of Swedish medical policy making bodies. The only other thing I've ever heard about them is in this forum, where they decided to let covid run wild through their population and resulted in a much more intense and deadly pandemic than their European neighbors. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of their judgement.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Europe

Sweden's death rate to date is unremarkable in the context of Europe. It's fairly middle of the road.
 
Ziggurat said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Europe

Sweden's death rate to date is unremarkable in the context of Europe. It's fairly middle of the road.
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Yes, I edited my post a bit too late. It's bad considering their nordic neighbors.

Lol you can tell which one is Sweden on the map. It's the dark green one sandwiched between much lighter Finland, Denmark, and Norway. Clearly something went amiss for them to have killed do many more of their citizens than their very similar Nordic peers.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
??

I'm pretty clearly impugning both their actions and motives.
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If the actions are wrong, the motives don't matter. But you can't really make much of a case for the actions being wrong. It's all hand-wavy stuff about how it's "anti-trans". That, or it relies on outright lies, such as the claim that puberty blockers are reversible.

Remember that?
 
Ziggurat said:
If the actions are wrong, the motives don't matter. But you can't really make much of a case for the actions being wrong. It's all hand-wavy stuff about how it's "anti-trans". That, or it relies on outright lies, such as the claim that puberty blockers are reversible.
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Not sure what world you live in where the motives of politicians are not relevant when evaluating policy. Sounds strange to me.

It's absolutely going to be relevant in these upcoming legal challenges. The plain fact that state officials have repeatedly made it quite clear that they are motivated by animus is going to be extremely relevant.
 
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