Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Graham2001]

Another commentary, this time from somone who is Gay...

My friend Giselle Donnelly is the kind of person whose views, these days, are routinely denounced in elite circles as transphobic. She favors reasonable accommodations for trans people in areas like sports and bathrooms, but she rejects what she calls the “biological silliness” of denying the gender binary. She thinks trans women are different from natal women and should be called “trans women,” not “women.” The distinction, she says, is important in fields where sex matters, such as medicine, and it also recognizes the unique challenges of being transgender. “I want ‘discrimination,’ in the sense of making precise distinctions,” she told me. “The ‘trans women are women’ thing drives me batty. Beyond the biological silliness, it suggests that being trans somehow isn’t legit. It’s a true form of ‘erasure.’”
A transphobe? Actually, Donnelly is a trans woman. The gender ideologues who claim to speak for transgender equality do not speak for her. “I lament that small numbers of activists appear to want to use these issues in service of a larger social and political agenda,” she told me. “Their fight is not my fight. I do not wish to be a tool of revolutionaries or a target for reactionaries, and I detest their wish to tear the fabric of Western liberalism to shreds.”

https://www.americanpurpose.com/articles/walking-the-transgender-movement-away-from-the-extremists/

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What do trans children whose families are too poor to access care do in USA?

I don't know beyond speculation. I would assume many do without getting the care they need, as is often the case for poor people in this country when it comes to medical care. This is generally true, outside the specific context of getting trans affirming healthcare. Some might find grey and blackmarket ways to acquire care, which is also somewhat common in the general sense for people who are priced out of good healthcare.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Begs the question they're actually trans. Which is the whole point. Normally we require a formal diagnosis from an accredited medical professional, before allowing certain kinds of treatments. There's all kinds of medicines that cannot be prescribed by the patient on their own recognizance, but only by a doctor after proper examination.

Mental health diagnoses should not be left to the patient themselves to decide, nor left to the patient to determine the course of treatment.

A person doesn't diagnose themselves with depression, and prescribe their own antidepressants. The usual human rights have no problem at all declaring that adult manic depressives can't diagnose themselves or prescribe treatment for themselves. Or adult sufferers of BIID. Etc.

The only way your argument makes sense is if trans-affirming treatment is elective, akin to cosmetic surgery. But if that's the way we're looking at it, we're no longer talking about a mental health condition that requires accommodations in public policy. We're talking about people who are in the same category as drag queens and the folks who like to wear fursuits. The same category as people who like to get tattoos or piercings or butt lifts.

Some of these mental health diagnosis you mention are not that hard to get treated. Some are more severe than others.

General practitioners, for example, commonly prescribe anti-depression and anti-anxiety meds. The notion that trans affirming care is singularly unique in not requiring diagnosis of a disorder by a psychiatrist is simply untrue.

 

[Ziggurat]

Some of these mental health diagnosis you mention are not that hard to get treated. Some are more severe than others.

General practitioners, for example, commonly prescribe anti-depression and anti-anxiety meds. The notion that trans affirming care is singularly unique in not requiring diagnosis of a disorder by a psychiatrist is simply untrue.

Anti-depressants are overprescribed, so you’re not making a good case here. Plus, hormone therapy and sex change surgery are far more invasive.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't know beyond speculation. I would assume many do without getting the care they need want

FTFY

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Anti-depressants are overprescribed, so you’re not making a good case here.

If you say so.

Plus, hormone therapy and sex change surgery are far more invasive.

Lumping these two very different interventions together is in wildly bad faith.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

FTFY

Sure, whatever you say. Plenty of people who can't afford healthcare do without care that, while not necessary to keep them alive per se, would surely improve their quality of life. Stories of diabetics rationing their insulin are obviously a more dire example, but there's plenty of people needlessly suffering from less serious, untreated medical issues because of our for-profit system.

I suppose a trans person doesn't "need" trans affirming care anymore than anyone with depression, sleep apnea, or carpal tunnel "need" care. All of them can go on living unpleasant lives without receiving care. In the US, plenty of them do.

 

[Ziggurat]

Lumping these two very different interventions together is in wildly bad faith.

Then why did you do it?

 

[theprestige]

Sorry for the late hit, but after thinking Darat's posts over for a few days... It kinda seems like he was thinking about trans-affirming care like abortions. That is, the problem is denying appropriate medical treatment to consenting adults who have a valid condition to be treated.

If that's the case, then Darat has gotten hold of entirely the wrong end of the stick. The issue is that trans-inclusionists are claiming rights and entitlements in public policy without showing any valid condition or seeking any appropriate medical treatment. Medical care is not being withheld by anti-trans activists. It's being dismissed as a requirement by pro-trans activists.

This would be a very different thread, if transwomen had to actually be diagnosed with dysphoria, and prescribed access to women's restrooms as a medically-sound treatment for that dysphoria. Even service animals have to be trained to do a specific task (or tasks) for their owner, in order to qualify for the privileges of service animals under the ADA. "Emotional support" animals don't qualify.

 

[Horhang]

Pronoun case in Ohio settled. Professor awarded $400000 after being disciplined for refusing to use preferred pronouns.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/18/professor-wins-400k-lawsuit-against-university-over-pronouns/

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sure, but since nobody is relying on her character... she just reposts other people's content... how is her character relevant to anything? The teachers character is relevant, but not hers.

She comments on every single video she posts.

 

[jimbob]

Thread on Doxing of Trans issues Tiktok commentator split to separate thread

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=358416

Posted By: jimbob

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have never said, nor ever would I say that medical treatments* should not have regulations, ethics and controls for all medical practitioners and their treatments

Then please elaborate on your statement:

Whilst I think there should be regulations, ethics and controls for all medical practitioners and their treatments I can't think of any way of removing self-determination for adults who consider themselves trans that doesn't make a mockery of the idea of self-determination.

Because I don't know what it is that you think you're saying. I don't think you can't have "self-determination" in this context while gatekeepers remain in place.

ETA: You clarified:

Folk are reading between the lines and have managed to read the opposite to what I said.

When I used the phrase "self-determination" I was referring to someone who claims to be trans not being forced into medical treatment against their will!

Therefore regarding seeking treatment, that should be a matter of self-determination. If someone seeks medical help because they consider themselves trans that should be available. The medical treatment should of course be appropriate (hopefully based on good evidence) and should - like any other medical treatment for either a "mental" health issue or "physical" health issue - be ethical, regulated and controlled by the appropriate medical practitioners.

To this, I will only say that you are using the phrase "self-determination" in a way that is essentially the opposite of how it is used by people advocating trans rights. Your self-determination is the polar opposite of the self-determination under discussion... which makes your position incredibly easy to misread.

*Let's not go down the theatre of the absurd show of "oh so an ibuprofen has to be prescribed if you have a headache"

Perhaps you should consider evaluating my style of argumentation prior to ascribing me a tendency toward semantic rabbit-holes?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I would hope so but for some reason people want to focus on what the extremists want and allow the extremists to set the agenda.

The extremists ARE setting the agenda! That's the problem. Your call to "be reasonable" is pointless, because those of us on the critical side of this discussion are already reasonable.

With only teensy variations, the critical side's position is:

• Dress, accessorize, and behave however makes you happy, we want no barriers at all for purely social aspects of presentation.
• To obtain *legal* recognition of the opposite sex requires:
  • Diagnosis for persistent and unmitigatable dysphoria that is not caused by autogynephia
  • Treatment for comorbid conditions that might be causing dysphoria as an effect rather than a cause
  • Two years or so of therapy and counseling, which includes how to fit in with the opposite sex, respect their boundaries, and avoid causing problems
• Legal recognition should be a requirement for access to single-sex services... but those services still have the right to refuse if the presence of an opposite sex person would inhibit their ability to perform their primary objectives
• Access to some single-sex provisions may require genital surgery to access

It's a fairly common sense approach - do whatever you like when it comes to clothing and behavior, we don't care. But if you're entering single-sex spaces, there needs to be some respect and common sense involved. We might have varying degrees of understanding for what constitutes common sense in which situations, but I think all of us on the critical side are of the opinion that if people are naked in a single-sex space, then having the opposite sex genitalia visible is a big problem.

So at the end of the day, nobody in this thread is arguing for an "extremist" critical view.

On the other hand... the advocates are absolutely arguing for an extremist view of self-identification, no diagnosis or treatment, and access to all single-sex services on the basis of nothing more than magic words.

So don't pretend like you're occupying some eminently reasonable middle ground, and everyone else is an "extremist". It's insulting.

 

[Emily's Cat]

An opinion piece in the Washington Post which gives one trans-gendered individual's thoughts on their decision to undergo gender re-assignment surgery in the 1990s and the complicated personal issues that have resulted from that decision.


I found it an interesting read and definitely thought provoking.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...decide-about-transgender-surgery-at-nineteen/

Good article.

 

[Emily's Cat]

General practitioners, for example, commonly prescribe anti-depression and anti-anxiety meds. The notion that trans affirming care is singularly unique in not requiring diagnosis of a disorder by a psychiatrist is simply untrue.

GPs prescribe anti-depressants and anti-anxiolytics that have extremely minor side effects that rarely cause harm to people with mild forms of depression and anxiety.

They refer more complex or severe cases, or situations where there may be a non-psychological root cause, to specialists to make sure that the patient is being treated appropriately.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Lumping these two very different interventions together is in wildly bad faith.

No it isn't. Those are the two interventions that have consistently been under discussion, and they're the two that are being advocated for. And they are BOTH very invasive.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

GPs prescribe anti-depressants and anti-anxiolytics that have extremely minor side effects that rarely cause harm to people with mild forms of depression and anxiety.

They refer more complex or severe cases, or situations where there may be a non-psychological root cause, to specialists to make sure that the patient is being treated appropriately.

Your point?

Not everyone suffering from gender dysphoria is a complex or severe case.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure, whatever you say. Plenty of people who can't afford healthcare do without care that, while not necessary to keep them alive per se, would surely improve their quality of life. Stories of diabetics rationing their insulin are obviously a more dire example, but there's plenty of people needlessly suffering from less serious, untreated medical issues because of our for-profit system.

I suppose a trans person doesn't "need" trans affirming care anymore than anyone with depression, sleep apnea, or carpal tunnel "need" care. All of them can go on living unpleasant lives without receiving care. In the US, plenty of them do.

Lol, I actually have to giggle here.

A large number of people taking drugs for depression would find their depression alleviated by changing their lifestyle, and getting more exercise and better sleep.

A majority of people with sleep apnea would find their condition cured if they lost weight.

Most people with carpal tunnel can wrap a wrist and stop going the repetitive motion that caused the strain in the first place.

I find it very humorous that your arguments here all involve cases where treatment is 100% in control of the average person in about 90% of cases.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Your point?

Not everyone suffering from gender dysphoria is a complex or severe case.

On the other hand, hormone treatment is invasive and frequently causes irreversible harm and changes.