Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[theprestige]

Here's a question: If gender is so mutable, and sex so inscrutable, how come people are so confident the suspect in this incident is man?

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/multiple-people-shot-in-brooklyn-subway-sources/3641743/

Five-five, wearing a gas mask, no identification of a specific person... Shouldn't the manhunt be gender-neutral at this point?

 

[theprestige]

If you've followed the public debate in the UK, the inability of trans people to book relevant medical appointments through the NHS in anything resembling a timely fashion is a common and long running complaint. Wait times are measured in years.

It's not like gender dysphoria is some kind of medical emergency. But this seems like a problem with medical services availability. Just fix that and you don't have to worry about wait times for trans diagnosis.

And to be clear: By this you mean to say that you believe diagnosis should be a part of public policy for trans accommodation. You simply believe it should be waived as a requirement right now, due to limited resources and urgent need right now. In a more perfect world, you'd welcome diagnosis as a necessary step.

Meanwhile, there are other ways to approach the problem. For example, provisional accommodation, pending diagnosis. A trans-person presents a temporary identification, and when their scheduled appointment finally does happen, they either upgrade to a permanent ID, or get their temporary ID rescinded, following their actual diagnosis.

And of course there's something to be said for buying time for confused kids to get through puberty before committing to drastic medical procedures. And buying time for confused homosexuals to figure out they're not dysphoric, just gay and socially awkward. Though it would be better if this were intentional, and not an unintended consequence of subpar medical service provisioning.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm so confused.

If our genitals don't define our gender then what does sexual reassignment surgery do?

I'm sick of the "It matters when it does except when it doesn't except when it does except when it doesn't" loop back to "just shut up and agree with everything the disadvantaged groups says it wants, even the stuff the contradicts the other stuff" version of tolerance.

We're one step away from being transphobes because the transgender person wants all their groceries in one bag but the bag can't be too heavy.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's not like gender dysphoria is some kind of medical emergency. But this seems like a problem with medical services availability. Just fix that and you don't have to worry about wait times for trans diagnosis.

This problem has been well known and calls have been made for resolution for years and there has been little improvement. One might suspect there's non-practical reasons why this is the case.

And to be clear: By this you mean to say that you believe diagnosis should be a part of public policy for trans accommodation. You simply believe it should be waived as a requirement right now, due to limited resources and urgent need right now. In a more perfect world, you'd welcome diagnosis as a necessary step.

No, I don't. Self-determination seems to be the best policy, and the complete lack of the sky falling in countries that have adopted such policies has shown that the claimed risks of such policies were simply unfounded. Requiring certain diagnosis or medical treatments for official recognition creates coercion for trans people to undergo treatments which may not be in their own best interests as they perceive them (like requiring someone to undergo surgical or hormonal transition they might not want).

My point is that even if you take the UK's policy at face value, it's an abysmal failure under its own terms. Setting the goalposts at "diagnosis of dysphoria" and then making it totally impractical to receive such a diagnosis is just intentionally cruel.

Meanwhile, there are other ways to approach the problem. For example, provisional accommodation, pending diagnosis. A trans-person presents a temporary identification, and when their scheduled appointment finally does happen, they either upgrade to a permanent ID, or get their temporary ID rescinded, following their actual diagnosis.

Yes, there are many such temporary solutions if this requirement was intended in good faith. You have to wonder why these have never been implemented despite years of criticism about lack of access to care.

And of course there's something to be said for buying time for confused kids to get through puberty before committing to drastic medical procedures. And buying time for confused homosexuals to figure out they're not dysphoric, just gay and socially awkward. Though it would be better if this were intentional, and not an unintended consequence of subpar medical service provisioning.

Probably going to have to factor in all the negative effects of arbitrarily denying care. Considering how severe some of the mental health effects of untreated cases of dysphoria can be, this policy undoubtedly has a body count. Also have to consider that people will do what they often do when there's scarcity, seek out black market solutions and self-medicate, or, hopefully, travel abroad to receive care if they can afford it.

 

[theprestige]

I'm so confused.

If our genitals don't define our gender then what does sexual reassignment surgery do?

It's less confusing if you subscribe to the hypothesis that most of what we're calling "transgender" is actually transsexual.

This hypothesis gains a lot of explanatory power once you realize that pretty much the only places where trans access is controversial are sex-segregated.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am honestly wondering whether there really is a sex-based difference in the ability of human beings to determine the sex of other human beings. Specifically, that men are significantly worse at doing this than women. And most particularly that men are significantly worse at identifying other men when they are camouflaged to some extent, compared to women.

Because the way women look and act is so different from the way men look and act (albeit accepting that someone who puts a lot of effort into deception may succeed) that I struggle to understand anyone who says, oh well they're wearing a frock, they must be a woman.

As an example, the ubiquitous India Willoughby was posting some pictures on Twitter, pictures that included a couple of butch lesbians, and saying, well they could easily be trans. Uh, no. He thinks we don't know what butch lesbians look like?

I can't find the reference, but there is a difference between the sexes. Females are better at determining the sex of other people than men are. Not massively, but probably still material. IIRC it was something like 99.8% accurate for females, versus like 97% accurate for males.

While I'm sure there are some exceptions, prey are generally better at accurately identifying predators than predators are at identifying prey. Predators only have to be right some of the time in order to stay fed and keep living; Prey has to be right every single time or they die.

 

[Meadmaker]

If you've followed the public debate in the UK, the inability of trans people to book relevant medical appointments through the NHS in anything resembling a timely fashion is a common and long running complaint. Wait times are measured in years.

That's what I mean about gatekeeping through diagnosis.

One might question whether a system that requires medical treatment for dysphoria as a requirement for official recognition and gender change but systematically fails to adequately fund enough clinic and practitioners to do so is operating in good faith.

If this is a systemic issue with NHS and provision of mental health care, then it's unfortunate, but not really the subject of this thread.


If you are saying that this specific condition is difficult to get diagnosis and treatment for in the UK, then I think it makes sense to raise that as an issue.

Skipping the diagnosis, though, and going straight to surgery, seems like an incredibly stupid solution to the problem of slow diagnosis.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What a strange fantasy world you've presented in which people seeking out care for gender dysphoria aren't routinely receiving lots of mental health counseling and professional guidance.

WTF planet are you on that you keep parroting such falsehoods?

Seriously. My sibling's youngest female child ordered a binder on-line and wore it for a few months. Then they made an appointment with a general practitioner, spent 15 minutes talking with them and said "I'm trans" and left with a prescription for testosterone. They were 16 at the time. No parental consent or even involvement was required. There was no discussion of underlying mental health or other factors. In June they will be having a double mastectomy... after having just turned 17. Because no parental consent is required for "gender affirming care" where they live.

They have bipolar disorder and autism spectrum disorder on BOTH sides of their heritage. They have been struggling with anxiety for a few years. The GP who prescribed the testosterone and the mastectomy has NOT treated or even investigated any of that.

So please, shut the **** up about the "fantasy" that is actually really happening to real ******* people!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

ETF planet are you on that you keep parroting such falsehoods?

Seriously. My sibling's youngest female child ordered a binder on-line and wore it for a few months. Then they made an appointment with a general practitioner, spent 15 minutes talking with them and said "I'm trans" and left with a prescription for testosterone. They were 16 at the time. No parental consent or even involvement was required. There was no discussion of underlying mental health or other factors. In June they will be having a double mastectomy... after having just turned 17. Because no parental consent is required for "gender affirming care" where they live.

They have bipolar disorder and autism spectrum disorder on BOTH sides of their heritage. They have been struggling with anxiety for a few years. The GP who prescribed the testosterone and the mastectomy has NOT treated or even investigated any of that.

So please, shut the **** up about the "fantasy" that is actually really happening to real ******* people!

My wife's best friend's cousin's brother says that's not true.

Personal anecdotes strays into territory where questioning your perception and honesty of events, as well as your motives and biases, is relevant,

Edited by xjx388: 

<SNIP>
Edited for Rule 11

 

[theprestige]

My anecdotes are data. Your anecdotes are lies.

ETA: At least it's not another round of "it's only happened once or twice so far, so it's not really a problem and we shouldn't think about how to mitigate the risk of it happening more and more often."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

My anecdotes are data. Your anecdotes are lies.

That's right. It's about time you got with it!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If this is a systemic issue with NHS and provision of mental health care, then it's unfortunate, but not really the subject of this thread.


If you are saying that this specific condition is difficult to get diagnosis and treatment for in the UK, then I think it makes sense to raise that as an issue.

Skipping the diagnosis, though, and going straight to surgery, seems like an incredibly stupid solution to the problem of slow diagnosis.

Nobody is going straight to surgery, which is also administered by the NHS.

The point is that official gender change requires an NHS diagnosis of dysphoria. Even if you think this is an acceptable goalpost for policy, the inability to actually receive this care in a timely fashion makes this an unworkable solution.

 

[Emily's Cat]

All for something that makes zero difference in how I treat anyone.

Use whatever bathroom you want I don't care.

Pronouns are just words I'll use them because I'm not trying to be a dick for no reason, but the don't mean anything.

Play whatever sport other people are willing to play with you in whatever category you agree on.

Beyond that there's nothing to talk about.

It doesn't affect YOU. It does, however, affect ME. It also affects the vast majority of FEMALES in the US.

So forgive me if your argument of "This doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter" coming from a MALE is unconvincing.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It doesn't affect YOU. It does, however, affect ME. It also affects the vast majority of FEMALES in the US.

So forgive me if your argument of "This doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter" coming from a MALE is unconvincing.

Worth pointing out the forgotten trans man yet again.

Men's spaces are being mixed with trans people in exactly the same way.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you've followed the public debate in the UK, the inability of trans people to book relevant medical appointments through the NHS in anything resembling a timely fashion is a common and long running complaint. Wait times are measured in years.

That's what I mean about gatekeeping through diagnosis.

One might question whether a system that requires medical treatment for dysphoria as a requirement for official recognition and gender change but systematically fails to adequately fund enough clinic and practitioners to do so is operating in good faith.

Isn't it interesting how those wait times are being driven by the 4000% increase in people self-declaring themselves to be transgender, especially among teens who have had no history of any dysphoria prior to puberty?

It's sort of like finding ourselves with too few psychiatrists when teens on Instagram start self-diagnosing in droves with Dissociative Identity Disorder.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

ETA: At least it's not another round of "it's only happened once or twice so far, so it's not really a problem and we shouldn't think about how to mitigate the risk of it happening more and more often."

I mean, are we supposed to pretend that anecdotes of dastardly deeds count as data? If you want to discuss risk, you need to talk data, not anecdotes.

 

[theprestige]

Worth pointing out the forgotten trans man yet again.

Men's spaces are being mixed with trans people in exactly the same way.

Not in exactly the same way, since the two sexes are far from exactly the same.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I mean, are we supposed to pretend that anecdotes of dastardly deeds count as data? If you want to discuss risk, you need to talk data, not anecdotes.

Okay. Once you leave the internet the existence of trans people is 99% anecdote.

I know we're online so every third person is a genderfluid otherkin, but in the real world even just plain ole' at this point kinda quaint "just gay" are a majorly slim minority.

Maybe you're special and magical and your Dunbar's Number is 75% transpeople, but that's probably the exception.

You've been bad about "Transgenders exist just enough to matter, but never enough so any thing about them is allowed to matter to anyone else."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Isn't it interesting how those wait times are being driven by the 4000% increase in people self-declaring themselves to be transgender, especially among teens who have had no history of any dysphoria prior to puberty?

It's sort of like finding ourselves with too few psychiatrists when teens on Instagram start self-diagnosing in droves with Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Tapping the "left handed people by year" graph yet again:

http://www.med.mcgill.ca/epidemiology/hanley/bios601/CandHchapter06/HistoryGeographyHumanHandedness.pdf

Seems that once you took away teachers smacking left handers with rulers, their numbers steadily went up. Crazy how that works.

Social stigma works at making people hide who they are. You remove it, or even lessen it a tiny bit, and you'll see more people coming out of the closet. (Left handers should return to Victorian era shame if you ask me, but that's a derail)

 

[Meadmaker]

Nobody is going straight to surgery, which is also administered by the NHS.

The point is that official gender change requires an NHS diagnosis of dysphoria. Even if you think this is an acceptable goalpost for policy, the inability to actually receive this care in a timely fashion makes this an unworkable solution.

Ok. I see what you were getting at. I read "official transition" incorrectly, thinking you were referring to medical treatment. Of course, that was because it was kind of a subject change. The original discussion was about making sure that people don't undergo surgery without proper diagnosis, and it kind of morphed into the "official transition".