Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Rolfe]

I keep hearing men say they don't realise that a transwoman is a man, and imagining that women don't realise either. I can't say we'll always spot it if the deception is really deep, but the combination of appearance, voice, way of moving and behaviour, when seen in real life as opposed to a photo or even a video, pretty much always nails it.

It's not that women didn't know that men dressed in women's clothes were invading our private spaces for decades, we did. But we were told they had had surgery to remove their genitalia and they were poor troubled souls we should be kind to, so we suppressed our trigger reaction and simply left as soon as we could.

Now we know what's really going on, the genie is out of the bottle. We've all seen India Willoughby and Yaniv and wilLIAm Thomas and Veronica Ivy and all the rest of them. We've heard the male entitlement oozing from them as they badmouth women. We can't unsee it. I personally have read the blog of one transwoman I was being "kind" to for several decades, and now I wish I'd got the hell out a lot faster than I did.

And still we have to listen to men going on and on about transwomen as if they're all sweet, self-effacing, considerate flowers. Is there something wrong with their organs of perception?

 

[theprestige]

Scottish men sound either very unobservant or very polite.

 

[sphenisc]

Scottish men sound either very unobservant or very polite.

Scotsmen are quite well aware of how sweet, self-effacing and considerate trans-women are. Unfortunately that pretty much identical to how Scotswomen are. Which is why Scotsmen are polite to both groups.

 

[Shepherd]

Obviously the true Scotsman knows who doesn't wear the pants.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm talking about men on the internet, in discussions such as this one. Obviously.

 

[theprestige]

I'm talking about men on the internet, in discussions such as this one. Obviously.

The irony being that on the Internet gender and sex and nationality are far from obvious.

I'm a dude (or so I claim) who's met several transwomen, and I've never had any difficulty identifying them as male. But then, if I met one that passed successfully, I wouldn't know, would I?

On the other hand, there is plenty of porn and pseudo-porn where dudes have successfully passed - at first. This is why I say that passing is possible. With care and effort. For a short period. Under favorable conditions. In front of a willing audience.

But "gaydar" type stuff isn't really the point. The point, however it is phrased, is this: What rights should transwomen, by virtue of being transwomen, have protected in public policy?

 

[theprestige]

What I wish I’d known when I was 19 and had sex reassignment surgery

Opinion piece in the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...decide-about-transgender-surgery-at-nineteen/

A middle-aged transwoman writes about her experience and regrets with choosing to be trans.

"I chose an irreversible change before I’d even begun to understand my sexuality."

Trans activists are presently fostering a culture in which transitioning is encouraged in young people who are still learning about, and confused by, their own sexuality. Any suggestion that maybe transitioning should be reserved as a medical treatment, for people who have a severe psychological condition other than puberty, is considered transphobic.

Any attempt to discuss this serious issue in a serious way is met with vilifying blather and unscientific handwaving.

 

[Rolfe]

I read that. As he said, maybe if he'd left it a bit longer he'd still have transitioned, but it would have been a more mature choice. A lot of internalised homophobia there. A gay boy who didn't know how to find a male lover other than turning himself into a non-functioning facsimle of a woman, and then discovered that men weren't interested in a facsimile and that he didn't have the capacity to enjoy sex anyway. I'd call that tragic. And he's one of the supposed success stories.

 

[theprestige]

I read that. As he said, maybe if he'd left it a bit longer he'd still have transitioned, but it would have been a more mature choice. A lot of internalised homophobia there. A gay boy who didn't know how to find a male lover other than turning himself into a non-functioning facsimle of a woman, and then discovered that men weren't interested in a facsimile and that he didn't have the capacity to enjoy sex anyway. I'd call that tragic. And he's one of the supposed success stories.

Not only one of the supposed success stories, but actually the approach recommended by trans-activists: Don't question if maybe you're just gay and need some time to finish sorting that out and coming to terms with it. Just go straight to trans-affirmation and never look back.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Not only one of the supposed success stories, but actually the approach recommended by trans-activists: Don't question if maybe you're just gay and need some time to finish sorting that out and coming to terms with it. Just go straight to trans-affirmation and never look back.

What a strange fantasy world you've presented in which people seeking out care for gender dysphoria aren't routinely receiving lots of mental health counseling and professional guidance.

Lots of gender nonconforming or otherwise queer cis people would probably benefit quite a bit from this kind of mental health care to help them deal with the stigma and other mental issues often related to being queer in a hostile society, but that's going to brush too close to trans-acceptance for many. It's a real shame.

 

[Rolfe]

That's the "converstion therapy" you want to ban. And there already isn't nearly enough of it. Reports all over the place of young people being given prescriptions for hormones after a couple of visits to a clinc. Of their other mental health issues not being taken into account. Of practitioners who believe "the person is the expert in their own identity, they know who they are" and routinely affirm the self-diagnosis with no scrutiny.

 

[theprestige]

What a strange fantasy world you've presented in which people seeking out care for gender dysphoria aren't routinely receiving lots of mental health counseling and professional guidance.

Aye, there's the rub: People seeking out care for gender dysphoria.

Trans-activism deprecates the idea that trans-genderism is a mental condition for which care should be sought. It dismisses the idea that diagnosed dysphoria is necessary to the "valid lived condition" of transgender identity. It categorically denies the premise that proof of the dysphoric condition should be a requirement for access to women's spaces. We need look no further than our very own LondonJohn's posts on the topic for evidence of this.

So yeah, I'm sure that at least some people who are actually seeking medical treatment for gender dysphoria are getting counseled about other possible causes and remedies.

But seeking out medical treatment for gender dysphoria isn't what trans-activism wants. It's the opposite of what trans-activism is actually pushing for.

Trans-activism isn't telling prepubescent children to wait until after puberty, until they've had a chance to maturely contemplate their sexuality and gender identity, before they seek trans-affirmative care. Trans-activism is pushing to pro-actively offer trans-affirmative counseling to pre-pubescent children with total disregard for issues of puberty and sexuality.

ETA: And I should point out the massive **** ing blind spot in SuburbanTurkey's dismissal. The woman who wrote the Washing Post piece was absolutely *not* provided the kinds of alternative solutions she needed for her distress.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Aye, there's the rub: People seeking out care for gender dysphoria.

Trans-activism deprecates the idea that trans-genderism is a mental condition for which care should be sought. It dismisses the idea that diagnosed dysphoria is necessary to the "valid lived condition" of transgender identity. It categorically denies the premise that proof of the dysphoric condition should be a requirement for access to women's spaces. We need look no further than our very own LondonJohn's posts on the topic for evidence of this.

So yeah, I'm sure that at least some people who are actually seeking medical treatment for gender dysphoria are getting counseled about other possible causes and remedies.

But seeking out medical treatment for gender dysphoria isn't what trans-activism wants. It's the opposite of what trans-activism is actually pushing for.

If you say so.

Seems to me your needlessly conflating medical and social issues. Trans activists are trying to remove needless gatekeeping steps like diagnosis requirements for official transition largely because these hard to access services are being used as de-facto bottlenecks to make transitioning a needlessly long (often years long) process.

 

[Meadmaker]

If you say so.

Seems to me your needlessly conflating medical and social issues. Trans activists are trying to remove needless gatekeeping steps like diagnosis requirements for official transition largely because these hard to access services are being used as de-facto bottlenecks to make transitioning a needlessly long (often years long) process.

(Emphasis added)

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm loving the loop we've done about 100 times now from "No absolutely nobody is saying you can just declare yourself the other gender that's an absolute hyperbolic strawman" right through dismissing literally every single thing that ISNT'T THAT and then right back to the start.

 

[theprestige]

Heh.

People with disabilities have rights and entitlements in public policy. But they actually have to qualify for them, by establishing their disability as a medical fact. Nobody complains that this diagnosis is a needless gatekeeping step, or that the required doctor's note is an unsupportable burden.

Not only that, but disability accommodations are firmly rooted in scientific facts about medical conditions and the best known treatments for them.

Trans-activism wishes exactly the opposite for gender dysphoria. Everything from lying about it not being a mental disorder, to denying that any diagnosis is even necessary to qualify for entitlements in public policy.

ST quite graciously allows that people actually seeking proper care for gender dysphoria may receive another, better medical recommendation. It's an easy enough concession to make, since he's starting from the premise that people shouldn't have to seek such care and are just fine without it, and that recommending it is transphobic and should be avoided.

Don't seek medical care for gender dysphoria. You might find out you don't have the condition, and nobody wants that.

 

[theprestige]

I'm loving the loop we've done about 100 times now from "No absolutely nobody is saying you can just declare yourself the other gender that's an absolute hyperbolic strawman" right through dismissing literally every single thing that ISNT'T THAT and then right back to the start.

Say what you will about fringe resets, running your hand through the tassels can be enjoyable.

 

[JoeMorgue]

All for something that makes zero difference in how I treat anyone.

Use whatever bathroom you want I don't care.

Pronouns are just words I'll use them because I'm not trying to be a dick for no reason, but the don't mean anything.

Play whatever sport other people are willing to play with you in whatever category you agree on.

Beyond that there's nothing to talk about.

 

[theprestige]

All for something that makes zero difference in how I treat anyone.

Use whatever bathroom you want I don't care.

Pronouns are just words I'll use them because I'm not trying to be a dick for no reason, but the don't mean anything.

Play whatever sport other people are willing to play with you in whatever category you agree on.

Beyond that there's nothing to talk about.

It also affects what kinds of public policy and what kinds of activist causes I'll support.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

(Emphasis added)

If you've followed the public debate in the UK, the inability of trans people to book relevant medical appointments through the NHS in anything resembling a timely fashion is a common and long running complaint. Wait times are measured in years.

That's what I mean about gatekeeping through diagnosis.

One might question whether a system that requires medical treatment for dysphoria as a requirement for official recognition and gender change but systematically fails to adequately fund enough clinic and practitioners to do so is operating in good faith.