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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1512370811402960898

British Cycling suspends its Transgender and Non-Binary Participation policy.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/apr/08/british-cycling-u-turn-freezes-trans-women-out-of-elite-female-events

The Guardian understands that the decision was taken by British Cycling’s board of directors after numerous members – and voices within the sport – raised concerns that trans women such as Emily Bridges, who broke the national junior 25-mile record as a male before transitioning, would have an unfair advantage in the female category.

British Cycling also acknowledged there were “concerns” that its transgender policy – which was only ratified in January – did not match the guidance from the Sports Council Equality Group (SCEG), which was based on an 18-month review of the science.
 
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What happens when people express anxiety about being forced to undress in front of their cis-gendered peers?

In my day, they were told to suck it up and get over it, and they did. Damned if I can figure out why these younger generations are so fussy about taking off their clothes around other guys. Conforming to their ridiculous modern customs makes my gym experience less pleasant. And as TomB noted, by the '80s, people simply didn't take showers in gym class and, in order to avoid it, they also stopped sweating in gym class.

I can't speak for women, though. I think they've always been more reluctant to take off their clothes around other women.


However, if I left that as a complete answer, that would be a dodge, so I don't want to do that.

Greater privacy for all is something that is of course a worthy goal. As I said, though, I think you underestimate the difficulty in providing it. High schools are experimenting with it, like the one we were discussing in Long Beach. I think the experiment will fail.

Consider this: There are many, many, private gym facilities in the United States. I have never been in one that has the kind of enhanced privacy features you are advocating. Some have slightly more privacy than others, but when I go to the gym, I see guys in their underwear a lot. I see naked guys sometimes. I assume the same is true on the other side of the wall in the women's locker room. So, these companies cater to consumer preference, and they don't do what you think would be a good idea. What does that tell you about consumer preference?

What I'm pretty sure it says is that people would prefer enhanced privacy, but if they have to use their own money to pay for it, the cost is not worth the benefit.

So, my ultimate response to your question would be to continue using the kinds of facilities that exist in private facilities where people use their own money. I might consider allowing kids who are too anxiety prone about same sex nudity to skip gym class. That seems like a bad solution, but maybe it's a compromise.

Meanwhile, the primary dodge that you continue to engage in is that even if enhanced privacy is the direction we are going in, that is still a future scenario. Right here, right now, we have a dilemma. We can work toward improving the situation so that we don't have that dilemma, but we have a dilemma right now. The situation from that lawsuit is being played out in lots of places in America and, I assume, elsewhere in the world. Two teenagers in their underwear, one male, one female, both identifying as girls. Somebody is going to not get what they want. I vote for maintaining the cis girl's modesty, and will do so unless I'm convinced that the majority of girls don't object to the presence of the transgirl.
 
I wonder how that cost and inconvenience of adding personal privacy compares to paying out $150,000 in damages after a 4 year long discrimination lawsuit



https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-palatine-transgender-lawsuit-settlement-20200214-ldgh6vw7znfsfibwcury3bnn4a-story.html

If you were in a position to give advice to a school facing a similar complaint, what would you give as practical advice knowing that discriminating against the trans students is likely to be slapped down by an expensive lawsuit?

I would advise them to follow the law, even if the law is stupid.

And I would advise the girls who are about to turn 18 to remember to register to vote.
 
I would advise them to follow the law, even if the law is stupid.

And I would advise the girls who are about to turn 18 to remember to register to vote.

I suppose offering no solution is an option. Telling people "too bad, strip or fail gym" is what they tell everyone already if they have any apprehensions about the lack of privacy in communal locker rooms, so I suppose it's consistent.
 
I don't know. I was in my early twenties and the only thing that stopped me from hitting on them was that i knew they were males. I wondered if their breasts were the result of surgery or hormones.

Extrapolating from one of your earlier comments... that would be about 40 years ago, give or take half a decade?

While it's not guaranteed, I would guess that any breasts larger than a B cup would be surgery. Estrogen taken by males after puberty doesn't result in comparable breast growth to what a female experiences during puberty. Tissue grows, but tend to be on the smaller cup size. There also tends to be a difference in breast location on the rib cage, with hormonally grown tissue in males being further toward the arms than the midline. A high quality bra could make it hard to tell for sure, but if they looked like really nice boobs, there's a high likelihood they were implants.
 
Just as an aside, it's very easy to tell the difference, and it's partly why so many trans women seek augmentation. Hormone-driven breasts on men are always a weird conical shape.

That's because males don't actually undergo "female puberty" when they take estrogen.

Natural breasts are a combination of fatty tissue and the apparatus needed for lactation. The mammary glands and related bits lead to a more rounded shape.

When a male takes estrogen, it alters where their bodies store fatty tissue, and how much. They will build up fatty reserves in their breasts... but without the actual feeding bits, they end up shaped differently.
 
Every time I respond to one of these ‘you, a male, have an opinion about stuff that females have to deal with, male male male hm??’ posts of yours to say ‘I, a female, have a very similar opinion,’ you go ‘so what?’

If neither sex has clearance to have an opinion about this stuff then what is the point of bringing up your objections to male persons’ opinions?

There's a fairly significant difference between two people within the same affected group having different opinions... and someone OUTSIDE of that group expressing that nobody INSIDE that group should have any concerns at all.

Not that hard to follow:
1) This affects you and it also affects me, and my opinion is...
2) This affects you and it doesn't affect me at all, and my opinion is...
 
There's a fairly significant difference between two people within the same affected group having different opinions... and someone OUTSIDE of that group expressing that nobody INSIDE that group should have any concerns at all.

Not that hard to follow:
1) This affects you and it also affects me, and my opinion is...
2) This affects you and it doesn't affect me at all, and my opinion is...
It all affects us all. Christ, if you undermine women, you undermine men... if you undermine men, you undermine women. One of the greatest assets women have in this whole trans-women aren't women thing is men. Men are far more onboard with you on this than other women are.

This is such a liberal view where the whole thing is viewed through the frame of the individual.

Honestly, my whole life I've listened to women explain how male culture works, demand men change because from the God's eye view of womanhood they knew who had it hardest, dismiss male problems etc. etc. etc. Now it's coming home to roost because somebody with more oppression points is coming for you in the system that feminists helped to build. It's tempting to gloat, but at the end of the day, men still need women and your loss is my loss, my wifes loss and my childrens loss here. You have a chip on your shoulder and it is hindering your ability to resist this.
 
How many ciswomen need to seriously sexually assault or kill ciswomen in the women's bathrooms before we take action and ban all ciswomen from the women's bathrooms. What's your threshold for that number?

That's easy.

When women are five times more likely to commit sexual assault than trans "women" we'll ban chicks.
 
That's easy.

When women are five times more likely to commit sexual assault than trans "women" we'll ban chicks.

How would we ever know the ratio? This seems to be an area where numbers can be twisted to tell the story the narrator is trying to tell.

How do we know the percentage of transgendered women to CIS women?

I do understand that transgendered women in a men's public restrooms seems to invite toxic testosterone laden violence towards the t-woman.
 
That this "conversation" even exists ....

Let me guess: You think it's a self evident truth that Lia Thomas should be allowed to compete as a woman, and that Jessica Yaniv should have the run of any safe space for women that she wishes to enter. You're baffled by the thought of anyone questioning that obviously correct orthodoxy.

Am I close?
 
That's easy.

When women are five times more likely to commit sexual assault than trans "women" we'll ban chicks.

It may be simpler than that. A policy of excluding men ( whether or not they acknowledge that they are men) from women's spaces is intended to offer women some protection from whatever mischief men might make if given access.

The policy offers the women no protection from mischief made by other women. Equally, it offers no protection from a nuclear strike, the common cold or the danger of mislaying one's spectacles. But no one expects it to offer any such protection.

The Argument from Violent Women is just another invitation to the squirrel-hunt. Better to decline it.
 
Let me guess: You think it's a self evident truth that Lia Thomas should be allowed to compete as a woman, and that Jessica Yaniv should have the run of any safe space for women that she wishes to enter. You're baffled by the thought of anyone questioning that obviously correct orthodoxy.

Am I close?

Not sure what "IsThisTheLife's" opinion is, but my position is mixed.

I don't believe transgendered women should be able to participate in women's sports. But I do believe that they should be able to enter public spaces that are reserved for women, just as I think transgendered males should be able to enter public spaces for men.

I also believe employment should generally not be affected by gender ID. I say generally, since I doubt I have thought through every scenario which might present a reasonable exception.

I have yet to hear an argument with evidence that could change my mind on these positions.
 
Not sure what "IsThisTheLife's" opinion is, but my position is mixed.

I don't believe transgendered women should be able to participate in women's sports. But I do believe that they should be able to enter public spaces that are reserved for women, just as I think transgendered males should be able to enter public spaces for men.

I also believe employment should generally not be affected by gender ID. I say generally, since I doubt I have thought through every scenario which might present a reasonable exception.

I have yet to hear an argument with evidence that could change my mind on these positions.

Reserved for women, or reserved for females?

I don't think you've actually thought this through.
 
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