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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Meadmaker said:
I might be wrong, but I think EC was referring to something a bit more specific.

In the thread, there have been references to specific cases where self identified transgender males (i.e. transwomen....or people pretending to be transwomen) have entered women's public restrooms and taken selfies of themselves performing lewd acts.

I think that's what she's talking about.

So, it isn't just people acting out a fantasy for the benefit of their audience, as a porn actor might do, but, actually, exhibitionists invading female spaces to conduct lewd acts for their own pleasure. EC referred to a shocking amount of this, but it seems to me that I have seen very few examples actually cited.

However, I could see how the existence of those people, even in small numbers, would freak people out, especially female people, in whose restrooms the selfies were taken.
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it doesn't really matter whether it's porn category or not. If you're posting it, you are doing it for an audience.
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I could find vids of females sneaking in to males spaces and doing the jiggerypokery. The fact that you can find a vid means it is for an audience.
 
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p0lka said:
it doesn't really matter whether it's porn category or not. If you're posting it, you are doing it for an audience.
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The difference is that if it's porn, that audience is a paying, willing, audience, and the setup is probably a staged event where everyone involved is part of the production.


What is being done in the cases referenced is that males are invading female only spaces, in some cases deliberately disturbing people who just went there to pee, and then posting pictures of it on the internet.


I have only ever seen examples in situations linked in this thread. In those, there was no unwilling audience in the pictures. However, the motivation is still different. What I have seen is that someone sneaks into an empty restroom and then posts an internet selfie. The situation is very much related to the difference between "normal" female exhibitionism and "normal" male exhibitionism. For females, the general turn on is that she gets to get a bunch of guys all worked up, which is kind of thrilling. She likes the idea of people liking her body. For males, the most typical exhibitionist motivation is, "I'm going to do this to you and there's nothing you can do about it." Male exhibitionism is typically a non-contact form of sexual assault.

Sorry, ST. I don't have a citation for that.

But it's true.
 
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Darat said:
Those types of activity are already illegal (if as described in some of the examples) and changing who can use a particular toilet won't affect that. I know people argue that it will make that easier and therefore more likely to happen. In regards to such behaviour being illegal, there have been cases in the UK of people who have made pornographic material in public places being prosecuted because of the videos they uploaded, so such laws are upheld.

I am sure that no one believes that such people form the majority or even a significant minority of trans folk and this is an area where I think in the UK the new guidelines make it clear that providers of toilets can make them single-sex spaces on grounds of safety.

I have changed my mind about this from a few years ago, back then I didn't think it was really such a big deal - people go into a cubicle and do their business in private so there is no "mixing" of sexes. However it's now blatantly clear to me how widespread the issue of women being victimised by men is and I think given that there are grounds for single sex toilets.

Generalisations coming up: I think there are a couple of things that will happen in parallel over the coming decades, first that design of facilities such as toilets will focus much more on privacy for everyone so sexing of toilets will slowly die out and alongside that the youngsters of today have a very different view of gender and sex (sex in both meanings) than past generations (talking about under 25s) and they won't see the issues we consider important in regards to sex and gender.
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I think in one slice of future the solution is male and female separately designated toilets for the biologically focused, other toilets for people who don't care. Disability toilets will be there too if we haven't learnt to make people better by then.
The people that use the biologically focused toilets will be a thing that old people do, the concept might go the way of the dodo.
 
Meadmaker said:
The difference is that if it's porn, that audience is a paying, willing, audience, and the setup is probably a staged event where everyone involved is part of the production.


What is being done in the cases referenced is that males are invading female only spaces, in some cases deliberately disturbing people who just went there to pee, and then posting pictures of it on the internet.
I have only ever seen examples in situations linked in this thread. In those, there was no unwilling audience in the pictures. However, the motivation is still different. What I have seen is that someone sneaks into an empty restroom and then posts an internet selfie. The situation is very much related to the difference between "normal" female exhibitionism and "normal" male exhibitionism. For females, the general turn on is that she gets to get a bunch of guys all worked up, which is kind of thrilling. She likes the idea of people liking her body. For males, the most typical exhibitionist motivation is, "I'm going to do this to you and there's nothing you can do about it." Male exhibitionism is typically a non-contact form of sexual assault.

Sorry, ST. I don't have a citation for that.

But it's true.
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Re the highlighted: One would need an example of the highlighted to work out whether it should be labelled differently from porn or not, or whether it's made up *****.
 
acbytesla said:
A few times.

What makes you think there is a major problem there? They have dividers too.
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You understand that for the vast majority of the time it's males committing sexual assault yes?

You understand that for the vast majority of the time it's females that are the victims of sexual assaults yes?

You understand that the vast majority of the time women use the women's toilets yes?

Given that, what was the point of your anecdote about using the *men's* toilets because:
"I've only used the women's toilets a few times and never seen sexual assaults"
gives a vastly different impression than:
"I've been using toilets for 60 years and never seen a sexual assault"
 
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p0lka said:
Re the highlighted: One would need an example of the highlighted to work out whether it should be labelled differently from porn or not, or whether it's made up *****.
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The computer I'm posting on is also seen by high school students on the Robotics team. There are some searches I'm just not going to do.


But I've seen them. I think they are rare, if that matters.
 
Manger Douse said:
How many times have you used the women's toilets in 60 years?
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I used to use them a lot when my kids were young. If we were out and they needed to go - or needed changing - I always took them to the women's toilets. The fact that men's didn't have a changing area wasn't even relevant.

Men's toilets have precisely 9,638% more pathogens than women's.

Which is strangely also the exact same ratio of perverted behaviour between the two genders.
 
Manger Douse said:
You understand that for the vast majority of the time it's males committing sexual assault yes?

You understand that for the vast majority of the time it's females that are the victims of sexual assaults yes?

You understand that the vast majority of the time women use the women's toilets yes?

Given that, what was the point of your anecdote about using the *men's* toilets because:
"I've only used the women's toilets a few times and never seen sexual assaults"
gives a vastly different impression than:
"I've been using toilets for 60 years and never seen a sexual assault"
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I'm unaware of a problem with transsexuals or preoperative males committing sexual assaults against women. In contrast, I'm far more aware of heterosexual males committing such assaults.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm unaware of a problem with transsexuals or preoperative males committing sexual assaults against women. In contrast, I'm far more aware of heterosexual males committing such assaults.
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You're aware of males doing it

ETA: I'd still like to know why you chose 60 years over a few times too
 
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