Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Rolfe]

As I said whether you think people are right or wrong some people do use different definitions than you. To some people it would be as you see it, for others it wouldn't. Language is like that.

Whose definition should be the one to apply then, if you want to go down that road? Suppose there was a dating app for people with blue eyes, and I joined despite having (as you can observe) brown eyes. The people running the app say, you have brown eyes, you aren't eligible to join. I then say, I have blue eyes, I identify as a blue-eyed person, my definition of blue eyes is the colour you see my eyes are - who wins?

 

[Darat]

Well in that case let's go with the legal definitions.

...snip...

Whether you think people are right or wrong some people do use different definitions than you, some may agree with using the definition you want to, some may use a different one. The legal definition only has primary standing in legal matters.

 

[Rolfe]

I refer you to my post immediately above yours. Who wins?

 

[Darat]

Whose definition should be the one to apply then, if you want to go down that road? Suppose there was a dating app for people with blue eyes, and I joined despite having (as you can observe) brown eyes. The people running the app say, you have brown eyes, you aren't eligible to join. I then say, I have blue eyes, I identify as a blue-eyed person, my definition of blue eyes is the colour you see my eyes are - who wins?

"...I've just looked and there are a number of dating apps that seem to be dedicated to a wide range of different demographics. Given the number I'm going to assume that it isn't illegal to filter by those demographics - which seems to include everything from sex to if you ride a motorbike to what sort of sexual acts you like...."

 

[Ziggurat]

As I said whether you think people are right or wrong some people do use different definitions than you.

I know that. But again, they are wrong.

But even more importantly, you have actually avoided answering the original question. Use the NORMAL definition of female in both your interpretation of and response to this question, where female refers to biology, and where transwomen are not female.

Should lesbians be able to make a female-only dating app that excludes non-females?

 

[Ziggurat]

"...I've just looked and there are a number of dating apps that seem to be dedicated to a wide range of different demographics.

Catering to a demographic doesn't automatically mean you are excluding those not of that demographic. The question stands, this doesn't answer it.

 

[Rolfe]

"...I've just looked and there are a number of dating apps that seem to be dedicated to a wide range of different demographics. Given the number I'm going to assume that it isn't illegal to filter by those demographics - which seems to include everything from sex to if you ride a motorbike to what sort of sexual acts you like...."

So if a lesbian dating app refused to let males (by their understanding of the meaning of the word, which for convenience sake we'll define as having both a functional SRY gene and androgen receptors in the judgement of the operators) join, would not be in danger of breaking the Equality Act?

Bearing in mind that riding a motorbike or liking it missionary position are not protected characteristics under the EA.

 

[Rolfe]

I know that. But again, they are wrong.

But even more importantly, you have actually avoided answering the original question. Use the NORMAL definition of female in both your interpretation of and response to this question, where female refers to biology, and where transwomen are not female.

Should lesbians be able to make a female-only dating app that excludes non-females?

Catering to a demographic doesn't automatically mean you are excluding those not of that demographic. The question stands, this doesn't answer it.

The issue here is that none of the groups Darat has mentioned is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. You can't legally challenge being excluded from anything on the grounds of not riding a motorbike, under the Equality Act. So all these examples are pretty irrelevant.

Would a male who identifies as a lesbian be able to challenge being excluded from a lesbian dating app by invoking the Equality Act?

 

[BobTheCoward]

Are you serious? Because I can’t see how a serious person can support such hate speech.

Hate speech? That is a joke right?

 

[theprestige]

What valid point - that there are horrible, nasty people out there? I hardly think that is something in doubt by anyone or needs to be stated. This India Willoughby may be a terrible person but since they are a human being I will respect their individual rights the same as I respect everyone's individual rights.

What individual right entitles a male to access female-only spaces?

 

[theprestige]

Do you want to tie this into the trans discussion?

It was tied into the trans discussion by the keyword "female".

 

[theprestige]

You seem to be - again - using the extremists as a proxy for an entire demographic? I know quite a few lesbians, when I'm next chatting with my friends I'm going to ask about this, none have ever as far as I can recall mentioned this "over run". Have you links to evidence for it?

A dodge.

The question is not whether the problem is very severe, but whether the owners of the app should be permitted to solve it by excluding males.

You can answer that question of "should", regardless of whether the problem is mild or severe or even simply hypothetical at this time.

Arguing that the question may be hypothetical, rather than answering it, dodges the question.

Do you think lesbian dating apps should be allowed to exclude males, including transwomen?

Going back to your earlier mention of "individual rights", do you think a transwoman has the right (individual or otherwise) to be included in lesbian dating apps?

As far as I knew dating apps are free to filter people how ever they want. Are they not?

Another dodge.

The question is whether this should be the case. You can answer this question regardless of whether or not it is currently the case.

Assuming lesbian dating apps are currently allowed to exclude males (including transwomen), do you think this should continue to be the case?

Do you think a transwoman has the right (individual or otherwise) to be included in lesbian dating apps?

 

[theprestige]

As I said whether you think people are right or wrong some people do use different definitions than you. To some people it would be as you see it, for others it wouldn't. Language is like that.

I see you're going for the fringe reset, then.

 

[shuttlt]

What individual right entitles a male to access female-only spaces?

What ever right the people who decide such things say they have. Blacks didn't have the right to enter white spaces, and then it was decided that freedom of association wasn't as important as the greater cultural goal of breaking down barriers. It doesn't seem much of a stretch to apply the same logic.

 

[Rolfe]

Can I try once again to reframe this. Forget motorbike riders. If they won't let you in their dating app because you don't ride a motorbike, you can't invoke the EA and bleat about unlawful discrimination, because people who don't ride motorbikes are not a protected characteristic under the EA.

Sex is a protected characteristic, and so is gender reassignment. The question is, which trumps the other under what circumstances? The recently issued guidelines have confirmed that situations where people are going to undress, such as toilets, sleeping accommodation, bathing facilities and changing rooms are cases where the single-sex exemptions may justifiably be invoked for reasons of safety or personal dignity.

I didn't see anything about dating apps. You don't get undressed when using a dating app. I do not know whether a dating app for lesbians is something that would be legitimately covered by the single-sex exemptions or not. I suspect Darat doesn't know either.

That was why I asked his opinion, should that situation be covered? Should it be lawful for a lesbian dating app to be able to say to a transwoman who is attracted to women, sorry no this app is for women only you can't join? Or should any app that did that be sanctioned under the EA for unlawful discrimination and told to let the bepenised ones join?

Edited by sarge: 

Removed personalization that violated rule 12

 

[theprestige]

What ever right the people who decide such things say they have.

A dodge.

Darat can decide for himself what rights a person should have, that he would grant if he had the power to decide such things. He can speak at length about his views on what rights should and should not be granted in his ideal or preferred version of civil society.

He can, if he so chooses, discuss in depth how the rights he believes in should be implemented in public policy, and how and why he believes they apply to trans individuals.

 

[Darat]

The issue here is that none of the groups Darat has mentioned is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. You can't legally challenge being excluded from anything on the grounds of not riding a motorbike, under the Equality Act. So all these examples are pretty irrelevant.

You mean apart from the example I gave of one labelled "sex"....

Would a male who identifies as a lesbian be able to challenge being excluded from a lesbian dating app by invoking the Equality Act?

I wouldn't have thought so - and there is the empirical evidence of it "not happened yet" - which in terms of logic may not be the best argument but it's a good one in terms of the real world.

 

[Meadmaker]

Obsessing about ...

Seems pretty common around here.

 

[Darat]

I know that. But again, they are wrong.

But even more importantly, you have actually avoided answering the original question. Use the NORMAL to me definition of female in both your interpretation of and response to this question, where female refers to biology, and where transwomen are not female.

Should lesbians be able to make a female-only dating app that excludes non-females?

FTFY.

I can't see any reason why such an app wouldn't be allowed given the current legislation. As to the "should" part, I'm all for people dating whoever they want so I'm not going to say they shouldn't, and from my perspective it would seem a good idea. But I'm not a lesbian looking to create a dating app so of course I am not going to prescribe what such a person should or should not do.

 

[Darat]

So if a lesbian dating app refused to let males (by their understanding of the meaning of the word, which for convenience sake we'll define as having both a functional SRY gene and androgen receptors in the judgement of the operators) join, would not be in danger of breaking the Equality Act? ...snip...

From my understanding (and what appears to be happening) such an app wouldn't run foul of the Equality Act. Do you think it would?