BobTheCoward
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That person is right and you are wrong. I have respect for that person and their position
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Trans women are not women (Part 8)
- Thread starter Meadmaker
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That person is right and you are wrong. I have respect for that person and their position
My next paragraph addressed that:
"....There is an issue that can be difficult to bring up and is often used to attack people (from both sides) and that is we do consider gender dysmorphia a matter of health. That means you need to be careful in how you define conversion therapy - too wide and you will outlaw those seeking therapy for their gender dysmorphia, whatever that therapy is, indeed gender re-assignment surgery could fall under a too wide definition....."
If that wasn't clear I'll try to reword it. Because gender dysmorphia is a health issue those that are seeking a ban on "conversion therapy" in regards to transsexuals* need to be careful about what they wish. They could find that they outlaw therapies that they want as well as those they don't want. We should be treating people with gender dysmorphia as we do other health issues, with evidenced based medical treatments. But as we know there has been an apparent rush to treat without having the evidence, without knowing the consequences and I'd say not even knowing what outcome they are aiming for.
*The legal defintion.
That may be the case but you need to more than simply assert that it is the case in this issue. And looking at the UK's latest advice rationality has won out over extremism and found a pragmatic compromise.
Do you have any data showing women are coming round? Trans-women are women has always had more support amongst women than men. I haven't seen any evidence that there has been a big shift in female attitudes.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-brits-define-a-transgender-woman?crossBreak=female
Who is doing that?
Not according to the new advice - such space can only be offered if "You can only provide a separate-sex service if a joint service would be less effective and providing that separate service is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim."
Safety is of course one of the legitimate reasons for having a single sex service.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Those who are seeking a ban on any treatment of trans-presenting individuals other than "how stunning and brave you are, what are your pronouns" know exactly what they're wishing for.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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Conversation therapy? Scary stuff!
Seriously, though, while that may be what proponents want you to think of, that's not what it's primarily going to actually do. What it will actually do is prevent any therapist who encounters a patient claiming to be trans from investigating whether that claim might stem from something else. Read through pretty much any testimonial from a de-transitioner, and you will find that they never got the treatment they needed for their actual problems. These "conversion therapy" bans will basically ensure that people like them never do.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Yes, I am aware of that. Pretty much all situations where people have to undress are specifically mentioned as being legitimate areas for single-sex provision. And there should be no males in these spaces. That's what I said.
I disagree - they may know what they want but how they want to deal with it may not give them what they wish.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Sorry, my mistake.
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It doesn't win out. We have had movement in the same direction for 60+ years to remove cultural barriers and taboos from the freedom of the individual to invent themselves within society. Declaring some hill that isn't immediately abandoned a victory is to live in some amnesiac permanent present.
The campaigners got half of the ground they wanted to win. Did they lose any ground in this defeat? This is with the Conservatives in power, the party that is least onboard with, and most disliked by, the trans-activists. There is no mainstream political party that really opposes the trans-activists... the most extreme position is to not be wholly onboard. With the Conservatives in power they nearly captured all the ground they had gone for. All they have to do is wait for a Labour government and they can get everything they want on this issue.
Which of course doesn't address my post.
Rolfe
Adult human female
If you look at polls where the actual issues are explained to the people answering the questions you find the results are rather different.
"Do you believe we should be kind to these unfortunate people who have had radical surgery to make them appear to be the opposite sex" gets one answer. "Do you believe that any man who simply says "I am a woman" should have the legal right to use all women's single-sex spaces" gets a different one.
I paraphrase of course, but a lot depends on how the person answering understands the question. Very many people still think of a transwoman as someone who has had extensive surgery to remove male genitalia and who tries his best to appear and behave as a woman. The "discreet, considerate" transwoman who would never knowingly do anything to embarrass women in a single-sex space, or indeed to draw any attention to his presence. Once they understand that these are not the only people they're being asked to accept into women's safe spaces, and the actual nature of the self-ID dick-swinging mob who are battering at the doors, opinions change dramatically. It's called "peaking", and women are doing it all the time.
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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You seem to be drawing some distinction between "want" and "wish", but I don't think other people are using whatever that distinction is.
Yes it does. "Winning out" when you lose ground and the battle just continues over the ground that wasn't immediately given up isn't "winning out". The majority of women in the UK disagree with Rolfe and Emily's Cat. There is no mainstream party in the UK willing to straightforwardly back their position, meanwhile the opposition parties actively oppose them. Where is the victory?
Again, there has been continuous advance for 60 years by the side wanting to free individuals, like trans people, from the taboos and cultural barriers to their freedom.
Nothing to do with any distinction between the words wish and want.
All I'm saying is that when folk are campaigning for "conversion therapy" (in regards to transexuals) to be outlawed by legislation they may not end up with what they want. They may think they are only going to get certain treatments banned but they may find it gets treatments they want to also be banned explicitly and implicitly. I can see a health trust being concerned that offering a certain medical treatment to a trans person could be interpreted under the legislation as "conversion therapy" and erring on the side of caution and not provide that treatment. We've seen this chilling effect repeatedly when such legalisation is passed to outlaw something.
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Well, the question was "To what extent, if at all, do you agree with the statement, "A transgender woman is a woman""
This poll has women being more in favour of gender neutral toilets than men:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/philoso...al-toilets-in-public-spaces?crossBreak=female
Though weirdly they are less comfortable using them:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/philoso...al-toilets-in-public-spaces?crossBreak=female
Women are much more positive than men about having self definition be the defining characteristic of gender:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...o-says-they-are-transgender?crossBreak=female
Then here you find that men are against and the plurality of women are in favour of trans-women using women's changing rooms:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights
Men think doing this will cause some kind of harm to women, while a plurality of women do not.
My impression from the data I have seen is that women are in favour of policies that make women feel less comfortable.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
On a related note. In your opinion, should lesbians be allowed to have their own female-only dating apps?
Have you examples of such polls?
Rolfe
Adult human female
I added to the post before you replied. Women have been socialised and scolded to "be kind". When they find out more about who they're being told to be kind to, opinions change.
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