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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Meadmaker said:
You are correct, but he got you to chase the squirrel.
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Hey I'm writing a complicated musicology paper on a group of important leitmotifs in Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen right now. A girl gotta have some displacement activity.
 
Meadmaker said:
She went from top fifty to top one.

Yeah, calling top fifty "mediocre" is a little unfair, but I think the point is obvious enough.
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Top fifty as a freshman. 4 years of training seems to have paid off, good for her.

Thomas was always a great swimmer. That's the point. Transitioning wasn't some golden escalator to an elite level, she was always there.
 
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shuttlt said:
The personal was made political a long time ago. We are in the culture war the same way as the citizens in a besieged city are in the war. You can refuse to fight, but that isn't going to make the battle go away and leave you alone.
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I'm aware of that. And, indeed, there's always a culture war, and there is no doubt that it affects the discussion of transgender issues, too.


I just wish it wouldn't.


And I am even aware that some of the people who are crusading to keep men (or whatever) out of women's (or whatever) sports are doing so because of God or because of some other aspect fo the culture war. That's all well and good, but are they right? If this happens to be the twice a day when their stopped clock has the correct time, it's still the correct time.

In other words, I don't care if I happen to be aligned with people I generally disagree with. On this issue, I agree with them, at least on the final result.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I contend that modesty concerns are the number 1 reason why people care so much about the privacy of these spaces, and it's not like men are any less capable of feeling shame or embarrassment than women.

Not wanting to be seen naked without consent is a pretty universal demand.

Thought experiment. Say everyone used one giant room to change, women and men all together naked as the day they were born, but there were guards armed with shotguns with orders to kill anyone that tried any pervert stuff. Would that make anyone feel any better? After all, the chances of being assaulted or otherwise victimized would be as close to 0% as anything else on this world.

Of course not. All this talk about how men don't care about privacy breaches because they're not threatened is total hogwash. Modesty has always been the concern shared by everyone, and it's a legitimate one.
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We were talking about sports at the time. You changed the subject.

Sometimes people on this board refer to that as a "fringe reset".

I'm sure I'll get back to the modesty issue soon enough. For now, I'm kind of stuck on the sports bit.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I contend that modesty concerns are the number 1 reason why people care so much about the privacy of these spaces, and it's not like men are any less capable of feeling shame or embarrassment than women.
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I wouldn't care. :-) From my point of view, having a woman in a male space changes the atmosphere. If she acted like a guy such that the tone of the conversation didn't change, and she was masculine enough that nobody wanted to **** her then I suspect there wouldn't be too much problem.

It does make me think of the dialogue in When Harry Met Sally about why men and women can't be friends. I think there is a lot of truth in that, and would be the basic issue of a trans-man coming into a male space.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Not wanting to be seen naked without consent is a pretty universal demand.
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In changing rooms you pretty much expect to be seen naked.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Thought experiment. Say everyone used one giant room to change, women and men all together naked as the day they were born, but there were guards armed with shotguns with orders to kill anyone that tried any pervert stuff. Would that make anyone feel any better?
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I don't want to share a changing room with women. They are going to complain about all kinds of ****, and it will turn into a women's space operated according to women's rules that men are the rude intruders into. No thank you.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Of course not. All this talk about how men don't care because they're not threatened is total hogwash. Modesty has always been the concern, and it's a legitimate one.
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Not for me. I can't speak for others, of course.
 
Meadmaker said:
We were talking about sports at the time. You changed the subject.

Sometimes people on this board refer to that as a "fringe reset".

I'm sure I'll get back to the modesty issue soon enough. For now, I'm kind of stuck on the sports bit.
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Take it up with Rolfe, that's where all this talk of "threat" came from, which you replied to. Somehow I think the discussion of the inherent danger of trans women and the inherent unfairness of trans women in sport aren't as separate in some people's minds as you seem to think. Almost as if there's some fuzzy, animus driven thinking going on.
 
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Meadmaker said:
And I am even aware that some of the people who are crusading to keep men (or whatever) out of women's (or whatever) sports are doing so because of God or because of some other aspect fo the culture war. That's all well and good, but are they right? If this happens to be the twice a day when their stopped clock has the correct time, it's still the correct time.
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If I had to bet, I would say that Lia Thomas is going to be remembered as a minor latter day Rosa Parks and we are all on the wrong side of history.
 
Meadmaker said:
We were talking about sports at the time. You changed the subject.

Sometimes people on this board refer to that as a "fringe reset".

I'm sure I'll get back to the modesty issue soon enough. For now, I'm kind of stuck on the sports bit.
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It is part of it. One of the early reports about the swimming debacle stated that one reason the girls were uncomfortable was that Thomas was walking around the communal changing room naked, with his penis erect.

Would men not usually move to conceal an erection if they were suddenly visited by one in a communal men's changing room? I mean, wouldn't this be bad manners anywhere?
 
shuttlt said:
If I had to bet, I would say that Lia Thomas is going to be remembered as a minor latter day Rosa Parks and we are all on the wrong side of history.
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If I had to bet, nobody is going to care about this in 10 years at all, just like how everyone memory holed how rabidly homophobic everyone was just 2-3 decades ago. You'll have the "social conservative" holdouts, but polite society will pretend that these nasty little episodes never happened.
 
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shuttlt said:
If I had to bet, I would say that Lia Thomas is going to be remembered as a minor latter day Rosa Parks and we are all on the wrong side of history.
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If I had to bet I would say that this nonsense is going to go the way of recovered memories and lobotomy. Not to mention that dancing plague, and even tulip bulbs.
 
Rolfe said:
that Thomas was walking around the communal changing room naked, with his penis erect.
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I've never seen the erect penis part. (Meaning....I've never seen it written about in the case of Thomas. I've also never seen......I should stop digging.)



The point is that, to the best of my knowledge, that part is not true. The rest of your post, to the best of my knowledge, is true.

Of course, it might be that most media outlets chose not to print that part. That has been known to happen.
 
Rolfe said:
It is part of it. One of the early reports about the swimming debacle stated that one reason the girls were uncomfortable was that Thomas was walking around the communal changing room naked, with his penis erect.

Would men not usually move to conceal an erection if they were suddenly visited by one in a communal men's changing room? I mean, wouldn't this be bad manners anywhere?
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I have never seen this in a male changing room. I might think of trying to throw a towel on it like you were playing quoits. Most likely the reaction would be to do a double take and then pretend not to have seen it, but then again, I'm English.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
If I had to bet, nobody is going to care about this in 10 years at all, just like how everyone memory holed how rabidly homophobic everyone was just 2-3 decades ago. You'll have the "social conservative" holdouts, but polite society will pretend that these nasty little episodes never happened.
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Hey! We agree. I'll downgrade her - a footnote to history Rosa Parks. There is going to have to be a dramatic shift in the culture for that not to happen, I think.
 
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