Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[p0lka]

I’m more interested in the destruction of women’s sport. I have had four daughters and two granddaughters. They all loved sport. But already transwomen are bringing their physical advantage to contact sports. I don’t want to see my family injured by unfair advantage.

A simple solution would be a trans category in sports?

Probably wouldn't go down too well as trans seems to be about fitting in to existing categories, rather than being themselves and making their own.

A conservative opinion which makes no sense, but whatever.

 

[Rolfe]

One doesn't need a trans category. Transwomen are not barred from swimming in the men's events. Their demand is to be fitted into the women's events. That and that alone. No men's event will satisfy them, no matter how kind and inclusive and welcoming it is, and no trans-only event will satisfy them. They must have the women's event.

Realistically there aren't likely to be enough transwomen to make a serious sport out of anything, so I can see why that might be an issue. But the categories that exist at present include everyone (except transmen, who bar themselves from the women's category if they take testosterone), so all the whining about being barred from sports is so much horse-hockey.

All that's needed is to make the men's category open so that women on testosterone are permitted to compete, and everyone has a category. Sure, a man who has chosen to take drugs that reduce his performance is unlikely to do too well, and a woman who has taken drugs to enhance hers will still be unlikely to be competitive with the men, but choices have consequences. The complaint "I have taken drugs that alter my athletic performance so I demand to be included in a category in which I don't belong so I can win" is pathetic.

ETA: I can actually see a different sort of problem in all this. Sports are supposed to be clean and drug-free. Should anyone who has taken any drugs that alter their performance be allowed to compete? (For example, would we say to Lance Armstrong, OK inclusion is the most important thing so you can still compete?) Is it OK if these are drugs that reduce your ability? Or not?

But then how do we deal with the androgenised women we're intending to allow to compete in the men's category? Does that now mean that performance-enhancing drugs are allowed if you're in the men's event? Are men allowed to dope themselves up with testosterone, on account of women being allowed? This does not seem like a good idea.

Frankly, as I said, choices have consequences. Transitioning and taking drugs as part of the transition is a choice. My personal view is that taking synthetic hormones that alter one's performance potential (I'm not banning the contraceptive pill for women) should be a complete no-no for competitive sport and people who choose to do this need to take up something non-competitive.

 

[The Atheist]

I am not posting the image that goes with this tweet, because it's probably against the forum rules, and it should be regarded as NSFW after lunch.

FTFY

And I'm not referring to the red thing it's holding.

 

[Rolfe]

I was going to post a link to a twitter post where there was more information about the female swimmer who apparently released a statement protesting about the unfairness of the decision to allow a male to compete in the women's events. It seems the tweet linked to earlier was indeed fake, but there is a statement from the swimmer which is not.

As of today I'm finding that individual tweets are not showing up with individual urls, making it impossible to link to them externally. I don't know what is going on. It is still possible to repost images though.

[imgw=800]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOUVbRqXsAAd_K7?format=jpg&name=large[/imgw]

ETA: Twitter urls seem to be appearing normally again, but I've lost the tweet I was going to link to.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

FYI Lia Thomas finished 8th overall in the NCAA final:

Penn swimmer Lia Thomas' collegiate swimming career ended with an eighth place finish in the 100-yard freestyle on Saturday. Thomas, a transgender woman, posted a time of 48.18 seconds, 0.81 seconds slower than her qualifying time of 47.37 seconds.

Virginia freshman Gretchen Walsh won the title in 46.05 seconds to land her first individual NCAA championship. It was a familiar spot for Virginia swimmers, who won seven individual titles and four relays to propel the Cavaliers to their second straight national championship in dominant fashion.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/33550045/lia-thomas-finishes-8th-100-yard-freestyle-final-race-collegiate-swimming-career

 

[Rolfe]

We already know he's throwing races to try to damp down the controversy. It can be seen in videos of the races.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

We already know he's throwing races to try to damp down the controversy. It can be seen in videos of the races.

I actually chuckled out loud to this one, thanks.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm glad you're amused. Have you watched the videos?

 

[Meadmaker]

I actually chuckled out loud to this one, thanks.

I doubt that Thomas threw the race in the finals, but it is clearly obvious that she did not swim as fast as she could in other races in order to make sure the margin of victory was not embarrassingly large. It's quite obvious on the tapes, and it started immediately after her 38 second margin of victory went viral. I don't know if she ever actually threw a race, as in deliberately avoided winning, but at the very least she deliberately avoided winning by the margin that she was capable of winning.


However, what's your point about 8th place? I'm pretty sure Reka Gyorgy could explain why first place or 8th place still creates exactly the same problem. Her letter is quoted in full in post 1604.

 

[Elaedith]

I doubt that Thomas threw the race in the finals, but it is clearly obvious that she did not swim as fast as she could in other races in order to make sure the margin of victory was not embarrassingly large. It's quite obvious on the tapes, and it started immediately after her 38 second margin of victory went viral. I don't know if she ever actually threw a race, as in deliberately avoided winning, but at the very least she deliberately avoided winning by the margin that she was capable of winning.


However, what's your point about 8th place? I'm pretty sure Reka Gyorgy could explain why first place or 8th place still creates exactly the same problem. Her letter is quoted in full in post 1604.

'They don't always win' is a stupid argument anyway. It's like saying that taking performance enhancing drugs doesn't create an unfair advantage as long as you still don't win 100% of the time.

 

[Meadmaker]

By the way, Lia Thomas was not the only transgender swimmer at the NCAA championships last week.

Iszac Henig is also transgender, and no one cares.

It would be nice to have one of our local TRAs explain why people are up in arms about Lia Thomas, but not about Iszac Henig. Hate is hate, right? We hate transgender people, right? So, we ought to hate Iszac Henig just like we hate Lia Thomas, shouldn't we? Or....maybe there's some other explanation.


ETA: Henig actually raced in the same event where Thomas finished 8th. He tied for 5th. So, he finished ahead of Thomas. They're both transgender, but no one is talking about Henig. It's all about Thomas. What could possibly be the explanation?

 

[Meadmaker]

'They don't always win' is a stupid argument anyway. It's like saying that taking performance enhancing drugs doesn't create an unfair advantage as long as you still don't win 100% of the time.

In my not overly humble opinion, it is worse than just stupid, but perhaps more on that later.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Thx for the highlighted, I agree.

Regarding CSSA there is very little data in general, autoandrophilia has next to no relevent data,
autogeynephilia has more data, but seems to be from one source only.

I assume the "one source" that you're referring to is DSM-5?

 

[Emily's Cat]

You were paraphrasing what I said,
I did not mean women I meant females, don't misrepresent me please.

I object to you appropriating the word "woman" to include males. That is the word that we human females use to describe ourselves.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I disagree, Your focus is women but I think gender, whether man or woman, is indeed something that is put on people like a costume and they're told they have to apply comply.

edit:
this win and lose competition thing is weird, stop putting that on me.

When it is worn as a costume, it's called "drag".

Seriously... Is "ewe" a feeling in the head of a female sheep? Is "doe" a costume put on by female deer? Is "mare" something that is put upon female horses, and they're expected to comply?

Try this from a different angle.
The term "female" applies equally to all mammals of the sex that produces large gametes. The term "human" applies to all members of the species homo sapiens, regardless of their reproductive role.

What's the word for a female of the species homo sapiens?

 

[Emily's Cat]

If only there were some logical, equitable and commonsense answer to trans in bathrooms.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/ed...ign-for-genderneutral-toilets-at-their-school

Seriously, this is where my patience just completely runs out.

Asher, who is non-binary, said having to use bathrooms which don’t align with their gender makes them feel like they are invalidating themself.

They tried to avoid needing to use the bathroom by not drinking water during the day, which resulted in headaches and affected their learning.

“Intentionally misgendering myself just to have access to basic sanitary facilities takes a toll on my mental health and not using the bathrooms takes a toll on my physical health.

This is either a male or a female person. If their feelings are so incredibly delicate that they can't use a bathroom without it causing them anguish, they need far more help than a special snowflake toilet.

FFS, It's a toilet. You're either going to whip out a penis and pee in a urinal... or you're going to drop your knickers and sit on a pot to either pee or poop. Your gender identity doesn't change your anatomy, it doesn't change how you evacuate your bladder or bowels. The facilities already exist. Use the one that aligns with your anatomy and stop being a pest.

 

[shuttlt]

This is either a male or a female person. If their feelings are so incredibly delicate that they can't use a bathroom without it causing them anguish, they need far more help than a special snowflake toilet.

Have you ever read Against Nature, by Haysmans? It's about these aesthete with incredibly refined tastes. He can discern the minutest trace of perfume worn by somebody across the street, and is constantly overwhelmed by his senses. He spends his days navel gazing about his exquisite suffering, the fine distinctions he can detect in his reactions to things, having a live tortoise gilded and dreaming about a trip he wants to take. He eventually does leave his house only to be unable to cope.

If you haven't read it, I think you might find it interesting.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's the same here, trans-activists talk about gender as socially defined norms as if a society without socially defined norms was possible or desirable. When people argue, like I think p0lka was doing, that society is somehow imposing on the freedom of the individual by having gender norms... p0lka is walking in the footsteps of Rousseau.

I suspect this is where some of the confusion comes in. Mostly because many of us have already caught on to the fact that what trans-activists *say* they want, and what their policies and arguments actually *accomplish* are diametrically opposed.

So, yeah, sure a lot of trans activists talk about gender ideology as a way to "overcome" societal norms around sex-based roles... but a whole lot of females and feminists observe that their approach is highly regressive and actually entrenches those norms even more strongly.

I can't find the original, so I'm going to paraphrase here...

Traditionalists: The woman does the dishes
Feminists: Men and women can both do the dishes
Trans Activists: Whoever does the dishes is a woman

So where traditionalists assume that the sex-based social roles are a direct result of sex, and are the "natural order" of things, Trans Activists go one step further, and assume that whoever performs those roles becomes that "gender". Feminists generally think that the whole thing is bollocks. Aside from some innate behavioral tendencies, there really aren't many social roles that are exclusive to one sex or the other on the basis of nature.

So yeah...

Traditionalists say that girls should like pink and boys should like blue. Feminists say that's dumb, girls should be allowed to like pink or blue or yellow, and boys should as well. Trans activists say that if a child likes pink, then that child must be a girl regardless of whether they've got a twig and giggle berries.

 

[Emily's Cat]

These laws are making it pretty clear who the people who honestly had concerns about these treatments and who was just using this as a pretext to enact their animus.

No matter how you slice it, laws like passed in Texas are meant to, and will cause, significant harms to trans children. Those supporting such policies are outing themselves as the repugnant bigots they are. It's a bit nice to have some honesty in such clashes, bigots JAQing off and concern trolling are awfully tedious. These laws are a mask-off, litmus-test type moment.

So what's your thought on laws like in Canada, where the state can take a child away from their loving parents if those parents DO NOT let their children take unnecessary drugs and have surgeries that leave them permanently damaged?

Are you ALSO against Canada interfering in families, and view those laws as being motivated only by animus?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think people are reasoning in terribly different ways here.

I can't speak for SuburbanTurkey, but I think for a lot of people there is a belief that a world that operates under universal enlightenment principles, and of course there are different sets of those, is some kind of ideal world. Lia Thomas is living as a person in that ideal new world, you and I and many of those female swimmers aren't. In fact we are preventing it being realised.

If they would only accept these woke enlightenment principles into their hearts, and you and I accepted them into our hearts, then there would be no problem with Lia competing. People lose at sports all the time, if we only accepted that she was a woman the same as them, then it would just be one woman beating other women. You don't mind women beating other women do you. The problem is that you believe she is not a woman. Your belief is the problem. We are the problem.

And that's where it all crosses into religion.