Cont: Texas bans abortion. Part 2

You are presenting this as balancing good and evil. In reality, it is balancing two sides of the same coin: extremism. As I have stated before, both are equally faulty. But for some reason, some people only see one side of this coin as bad.
You are, in this case, balancing an obligation with extreme penalties up to and including the occasional death, with a right that carries with it no obligation at all. The rights that will be conferred by a Vermont constitutional amendment duplicate the rights now conferred by laws, and in no possible way can they be inferred to obligate anyone to undergo an abortion.

You see rights as extremism. I do not.
 
A responsible and democratic leaning society is not an extremist condition;
Could you expand on this. There have been plenty of times and places where the overwhelming majority of people held views we would now regard as extreme. If in Texas the majority of people are against abortion, would that be an extremist position and therefore indicative of it not being democratic leaning? It feels like democratic leaning means something like liberal?

Outright banning of abortion, and legal abortion of healthy fetuses up until birth, clearly are polar opposites in ideology. Extremes. Same coin, different sides. Equally faulty ideal.
This feels like the talk of somebody who doesn't really believe in anything. Banning rape and legalising rape are polar opposites in ideology. Extremes. Same coin, different sides. Equally faulty ideal.
 
This feels like the talk of somebody who doesn't really believe in anything. Banning rape and legalising rape are polar opposites in ideology. Extremes. Same coin, different sides. Equally faulty ideal.

Again, you are characterizing what is commonly considered good vs what is commonly considered bad. There is no "good" side of the coin in question. One side bans abortion outright, the other allows it on healthy fetuses, up until birth.
 
Again, you are characterizing what is commonly considered good vs what is commonly considered bad. There is no "good" side of the coin in question. One side bans abortion outright, the other allows it on healthy fetuses, up until birth.
Why is there no good side of the coin? If neither side of the coin is completely good, maybe the good lies much closer to one side than the other?
 
I know this will shock a lot of people, but it turns out a conservative is telling lies about abortion:

Would a proposed Vermont law allow abortions ‘right up to the moment of birth’?


That means zero. Essentially the argument is, "Well, nobody that we can name is doing it (yet), and don't seem inclined to, so the law is ok".

"This section prohibits (makes illegal) any restrictions placed upon a woman's right to have an abortion. No such restrictions are named in the bill, but would include any restrictions involving gestational age of the unborn child," he wrote in an email.

"The bill, therefore, codifies a woman's right to have an abortion at any time during a pregnancy, for any or no reason, up until full-term birth," he added.


Why even make it legal through legislation, to begin with? It is unjustifiable extremism. How about, "In our town, nobody is inclined to murder people, so we legislated that there be no restrictions upon it". Equally stupid reasoning and justification.

This way of thinking makes the Texas legislation seem moderate.
 
Warp12, I don't entirely agree with you, but reading back... I agree with you more than I expected.
 
I know this will shock a lot of people, but it turns out a conservative is telling lies about abortion:

Quote:
Our ruling

Bishop Coyne’s statement is true in a strict legal sense, but only if the law existed in a practice and policy vacuum. Without context, it is seriously misleading in regards to what would be permissible practice in Vermont.

The proposed law would not change the legal reality in Vermont in any way. And all evidence indicates that the type of abortions that the bishop fears -- elective procedures in the final stages of pregnancy -- do not occur in Vermont, and would not occur if H.57 passes.

We rate this claim Mostly False.

Would a proposed Vermont law allow abortions ‘right up to the moment of birth’?

Yeah, I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

Anti-choice advocates love to push the idea that late term abortions are common or will become common if not prevented. It evokes visions of women deciding, willy nilly, to abort at 7, 8 or 9 months a healthy fetus because they just decided they didn't want a kid. I know of no ethical doctor who would perform an abortion under those conditions and unethical doctors would do it even if it were illegal.
 
That means zero. Essentially the argument is, "Well, nobody that we can name is doing it (yet), and don't seem inclined to, so the law is ok".




Why even make it legal through legislation, to begin with? It is unjustifiable extremism. How about, "In our town, nobody is inclined to murder people, so we legislated that there be no restrictions upon it". Equally stupid reasoning and justification.

This way of thinking makes the Texas legislation seem moderate.

Laws that don't outlaw things that aren't happening aren't an example of extremism, and it's moronic to suggest otherwise.

Go peddle your Fox News talking points elsewhere.
 
A responsible and democratic leaning society is not an extremist condition;

Analogies are inherently imperfect. Still, nor is what you are trying to claim is extremist, unless you're engaging in an arbitrarily setting of boundaries and direction. A responsible and democratic leaning society IS inherently an extremist condition, when that's set at one extreme. That we don't consider it to be an inherently bad one is irrelevant. It's on the far end of a particular scale.

and, again, you are painting the scenario as what is commonly considered "good" against a scenario that is commonly considered "bad". That is just bias.

It fits for its purpose quite well, though. Not because it's an arbitrary "good" versus "bad" thing, though, but because the characteristics of the one greatly matches the "good" option presented and because the characteristics of the other greatly match the "bad" option. Claiming "bias" in such a situation is a weak and shallow dodge of the substance.

Outright banning of abortion, and legal abortion of healthy fetuses up until birth, clearly are polar opposites in ideology. Extremes. Same coin, different sides. Equally faulty ideal.

As noted, these are not actually polar opposites. The polar opposite of forced birth is forced abortion. Incidentally, I'd be happy to agree that both forced birth and forced abortion are equally faulty. Your attempts to conflate issues here to present a false version of where the "middle" is something that looks remarkably like the Republican tradition of trying to brand ever further rightward positions as extremist left.

It's fine to present your case for or against whatever policy, but please, spare us the BS. I have no objection to advocating for some restrictions, especially when it comes to the treatment of fetuses that could reasonably survive outside the mother, but I have very little patience for dishonest framing.
 
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As noted, these are not actually polar opposites. The polar opposite of forced birth is forced abortion. Incidentally, I'd be happy to agree that both forced birth and forced abortion are equally faulty. Your attempts to conflate issues here to present a false version of where the "middle" is something that looks remarkably like the Republican tradition of trying to brand ever further rightward positions as extremist left.
This is incorrect. There is no unique way to define opposite for a question like this.That is one of my objections to Warp12's position. Without agreement on what the opposite positions are, we can't define a non-extreme centre position.
 
It is of course true that the proposed amendment in Vermont is not going to change anything about what is now done or permitted or possible, but will simply make the right now established by law a little harder to erode through changes of political balance. It will, in a sense, change the granting of permission to a right, but the difference is invisible except in the way it may be approached in the future.

But even if this were not so, and even if in some sense this action were legitimately perceived as, in some way, "radical," it would still differ substantively from the banning of abortions, simply because, no matter how radical a right might be seen to be, its exercise is never accompanied by arrest, trial, conviction, and sentencing, nor by error. A right removes an action from the legal system altogether. A right can be ignored, even argued against, without penalty at all. A right is different in its very substance from a law that denies it. And that is entirely true even if the law is correct and the right is not.

And I might add, though it should not be necessary, that the proposed right is not exclusively with regard to abortion, but also to other issues including birth control, a right which is, at this very moment, under attack by some in this nation, even if it is supported by all in this particular forum.
 
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This is incorrect. There is no unique way to define opposite for a question like this.That is one of my objections to Warp12's position. Without agreement on what the opposite positions are, we can't define a non-extreme centre position.

What do you think is the opposite extremist position of forced birth if not forced abortion?
 
You've now demonstrated you can't explain your opinions. And now you will continue to be surprised you can't convince anyone of your opinion. Or why they won't accept that you aren't religious.

To be fair, Warp12 has explained his position quite succinctly and clearly numerous times upthread. I find his position understandable and logically consistent, even if I don’t agree with him 100%.
 
A right removes an action from the legal system altogether. A right can be ignored, even argued against, without penalty at all. A right is different in its very substance from a law that denies it. And that is entirely true even if the law is correct and the right is not.

Isn't it sickening? A state legislates that "It's a woman's "right" to abort a healthy fetus, up until birth". Grotesque...the law and any support of it. Fortunately most states have more reasonable legislation.

Even the Texas legislation, as bad as it is, is more reasonable than decriminalizing outright premeditated murder. It is mind-boggling. As I say, I am not in favor of the Texas law, or banning abortion. But this is just demented.
 
Question:

How does the government know when a woman is pregnant, how do they know when she has had an abortion, and how do they know when a particular doctor has performed one?

This is extremely personal information and I just want to know how it gets to these people. Do the feds have a record of all my prescriptions, the results of my last physical?
 
To be fair, Warp12 has explained his position quite succinctly and clearly numerous times upthread. I find his position understandable and logically consistent, even if I don’t agree with him 100%.

I don’t see the logical consistency in comparing a law that has real-world consequences with one that doesn’t.
 
To be fair, Warp12 has explained his position quite succinctly and clearly numerous times upthread. I find his position understandable and logically consistent, even if I don’t agree with him 100%.

Then cite it please. I've been in this thread from the start and just did you the courtesy of re-reading everything he has posted in the thread (Not that big of a deal, 26 posts, mostly vacuous). And I see nothing even remotely close to an answer to my question.
 
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I was referring to his general opinions on abortion, not one specific instance.
Then your post was wrong because the conversation is about a specific instance (the Vermont law).

But, you claimed his point his point was "logically consistent". I can't find any place in the entire thread where he's even applied logic, and I can find several (especially the one where you interjected) where has refused to because he thinks his opinion is obvious.
 

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