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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Meadmaker said:
Works for me, but I don't think you will get LondonJohn to go along.


More importantly, I think there are some very influential policymakers who would not go along, from school boards to the White House.
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There's still a problem though. This redefining of the terms "women" and "men" to refer to exclusively gender presentation is being retrofitted across spaces and separations where the words were meant to represent sex class.

So if we relinquish the word "men" to refer to gender... TRAs then recast "Men's Room" to mean a restroom or locker room segregated on the basis of gender. Which is absurd, because we all know damn good and well that those restrooms and locker rooms are separated on the basis of sex class.

Additionally, it leaves us without meaningful words to represent the sexes of humans. The terms male and female are agnostic of species, they represent the sex classes of sperminators and gestators. But other species have terms that represent "sexually mature female of species" and "sexually mature male of species": Boar/Sow, Bull/Cow, Lion/Lioness, Mare/Stallion, Duck/Drake, Goose/Gander, Hen/Rooster, etc. But by relinquishing the words "woman" and "man" to mean something separated from sex by a mysterious internal feeling... we are left without the language to refer to "sexually mature female of the human species" and "sexually mature male of the human species".

And all of that is somehow assuming that you can convince the recent crop of dysphoric people to ONLY use "woman" and "man" to refer to their gender, whereas quite a few are busy trying to coopt "female" and "male" for themselves because they've decided that sex is somehow mutable, and if a male grows some tits and has a higher level of estrogen in their system, that makes them "female".

The only way to win is not to play.
 
Rolfe said:
Ah, aren't local elections empowering.

I just had a candidate at the door. He is standing for a party known to be lost to the woke. He seemed a lovely man, and my impression was he probably agreed with a lot of what I was saying, but I know how it works. You get elected, you have to toe the party line on policy matters. So despite him agreeing with me about the iniquity of forcing schoolchildren to use mixed-sex toilets (he has two daughters), he'd vote as he was told to vote.

I wanted to let him know how I felt, and now he knows. If more people understood what's going on, he'd be getting an earful like this at every second door. I see Nicola Sturgeon (she/her) has taken her pronouns out of her twitter bio. This suggests to me she knows that people are catching on and that it's a pivotal issue. It also suggests to me that she is not acting out of principle, because if this was a principled stance she'd keep the pronouns even if they were causing voter blowback.

There is a tide turning at the moment, and people like LJ are going to be quite surprised when it happens. In other news, it seemed to me that Maya Forstater's legal team just elicited clear evidence of unfair dismissal, so that could get interesting too. Although no doubt if that is the ruling LJ will declare that it was only a technical issue.
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Watching how females in the England, Scotland, and Ireland have responded to these manipulations has given me hope. Normal everyday females have started catching on, and are making their voices heard. They hold marches to support children who are being abused, and they get physically assaulted and verbally attacked by trans activists. They hold protests for male violence against women, and they are subjected to violence from males who claim to be women. They are told that males can have cervixes, that female is a feeling, and that any females who disagree are dinosaurs hoarding their rights... So they run around town in dinosaur costumes. They refuse to be silenced, they refuse to be kind.

And it's working. The more you guys have spoken out and refused to be bullied and threatened into silence, the more people - both male and female - begin to see the idiocy and the misogyny involved in this push. When politicians tap-dance around giving a definition of the word "woman", when female party leaders refuse to even name themselves, when female academics are threatened and harassed out of employment, when female artists are ceaselessly targeted for abuse, when normal females are facing "non-crime hate incidents" that require them to show up at the police office and their scheduled times keep getting pushed out again and again, when the one day a year set aside to honor females of the human species is met with a concerted push from organizations insisting that we should center males that day... It becomes obvious that there absolutely IS a conflict of rights, and that this "movement" has more invested in excluding females from society than it does in supporting reasonable protections for dysphoric people.

It's an abusive, misogynistic religion designed to silence and subjugate females.

I don't think it benefits actual dysphoric people in any way at all, they're simply the smokescreen for an anti-woman men's rights movement.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Watching how females in the England, Scotland, and Ireland have responded to these manipulations has given me hope. Normal everyday females have started catching on, and are making their voices heard. They hold marches to support children who are being abused, and they get physically assaulted and verbally attacked by trans activists. They hold protests for male violence against women, and they are subjected to violence from males who claim to be women. They are told that males can have cervixes, that female is a feeling, and that any females who disagree are dinosaurs hoarding their rights... So they run around town in dinosaur costumes. They refuse to be silenced, they refuse to be kind.

And it's working. The more you guys have spoken out and refused to be bullied and threatened into silence, the more people - both male and female - begin to see the idiocy and the misogyny involved in this push. When politicians tap-dance around giving a definition of the word "woman", when female party leaders refuse to even name themselves, when female academics are threatened and harassed out of employment, when female artists are ceaselessly targeted for abuse, when normal females are facing "non-crime hate incidents" that require them to show up at the police office and their scheduled times keep getting pushed out again and again, when the one day a year set aside to honor females of the human species is met with a concerted push from organizations insisting that we should center males that day... It becomes obvious that there absolutely IS a conflict of rights, and that this "movement" has more invested in excluding females from society than it does in supporting reasonable protections for dysphoric people.

It's an abusive, misogynistic religion designed to silence and subjugate females.

I don't think it benefits actual dysphoric people in any way at all, they're simply the smokescreen for an anti-woman men's rights movement.
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I assume you meant Northern Ireland here, not Ireland proper.

As far as I can tell the Republic of Ireland wants nothing to do with the UK's anti-trans freakout and has allowed official gender recognition by self-determination for several years now.
 
A bold move in the Forstater tribunal
https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1503749857193959437

BC: Your personal position and the institutional position, is that the belief - not the expression - is NWORIADS and against others' dignity
AG: yes
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NWORIADS = Not Worthy of Respect in a Democratic Society; which is contrary to the court's judgement earlier.

This seems likely to cause problems for the employer in this case.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I assume you meant Northern Ireland here, not Ireland proper.

As far as I can tell the Republic of Ireland wants nothing to do with the UK's anti-trans freakout and has allowed official gender recognition by self-determination for several years now.
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No, I mean Ireland proper as well.

Just because a pile of captured politicians pushed through legislation without bothering to consult the people who are affected by it doesn't mean it's a good thing. There are a lot of females in Ireland who are downright pissed off about it. Same thing in Canada.

You ignoring their voices doesn't actually make them silent.
 
Emily's Cat said:
No, I mean Ireland proper as well.

Just because a pile of captured politicians pushed through legislation without bothering to consult the people who are affected by it doesn't mean it's a good thing. There are a lot of females in Ireland who are downright pissed off about it. Same thing in Canada.

You ignoring their voices doesn't actually make them silent.
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Ok sure. I'm sure there are some Irish TERFs hawking the usual anti-trans nonsense there as well. The legal situation there is quite different than the rest of the UK.

The comparison to Canada is interesting, because as far as I can tell nobody gave a hoot what these losers had to say, changed the law to broad acclaim, and have not had the sky fall on them yet.
 
It was pushed through bundled up with much-needed legislation on other human rights issues. Voters were lied to that males would never be put in female prisons, and the like. Irish women are not happy either, just like Canadian women are not happy.
 
When local authorities are breaking the law to install mixed-sex toilets in schools (the law is entirely clear about how many toilets must be provided for the use os male and female pupils and there is no provision at all for mixed-sex toilets in these regulations) we are a long way past "anti-trans nonsense".
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Ok sure. I'm sure there are some Irish TERFs hawking the usual anti-trans nonsense there as well. The legal situation there is quite different than the rest of the UK.

The comparison to Canada is interesting, because as far as I can tell nobody gave a hoot what these losers had to say, changed the law to broad acclaim, and have not had the sky fall on them yet.
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So, here's a question. I do not know the answer. I'm not sure how to look up the answer. It would take more time than I'm willing to deal with right now, so I'm going to throw open the question to anyone who might know the answer.


A huge battleground in the United States on this front has been the high school bathroom, and high school locker room. I know they have locker rooms in Canada, too. Has there been an issue?

I've never heard of one. That could mean three things that I can think of.

1. When a transgender person wants to use the "opposite" restroom or bathroom in a school, no one cares and it's just not something worth mentioning.

2. When a transgender person wants to use the "opposite" restroom or locker room, the administration says, "I understand your gender issues, but you aren't allowed to use that locker room." There's no controversy because everyone understands that's the policy.

3. I live in an American media market and I just don't hear about protests in Canada.


And for Canada, you could substitute darned near any other country. I really only hear about this in America.
 
Canada isn't in the middle of a culture war. That's it. That's the difference.

Every opinion in America gets assigned to the only two sides, each of whom them compete to see who can create the most extreme version it, and they are more worried about making sure the other side doesn't get what they want then they are about their side getting what it wants.

If tomorrow a prominent Democrat said "Kittens are cute" within a week Republicans would be saying they were disgusting and Democrats would be saying the are the cutest things ever, Progressives would be saying "If you aren't constantly picking meaningless fights with everyone who doesn't think kittens are as cute as you think they are, you're Neoliberal centrist" and the Far Right would be storming Paws Inc in a Coup.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Canada isn't in the middle of a culture war. That's it. That's the difference.
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Fine....but what do they do?

Two out of my three options involved lack of media attention or significant protest, but is it because the trans kids just use the locker room of their choice, and no one really cares, including the cis-girls in the locker rooms, or is it because everyone understands that the trans kids use a separate, more private, locker room, and no one really cares?
 
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Meadmaker said:
Fine....but what do they do?

Two out of my three options involved lack of media attention or significant protest, but is it because the trans kids just use the locker room of their choice, and no one really cares, including the cis-girls in the locker rooms, or is it because everyone understands that the trans kids use a separate, more private, locker room, and no one really cares?
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I don't know for sure but best guess is a bunch of separate piecemeal solutions implemented as necessary.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Ok sure. I'm sure there are some Irish TERFs hawking the usual anti-trans nonsense there as well. The legal situation there is quite different than the rest of the UK.

The comparison to Canada is interesting, because as far as I can tell nobody gave a hoot what these losers had to say, changed the law to broad acclaim, and have not had the sky fall on them yet.
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Again, just because you willfully ignore the many females in Canada who are opposed to this, and who have suffered as a result of it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Closing your eyes and plugging your ears and hollering "la la la I can't hear you" doesn't work the way you seem to think.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Again, just because you willfully ignore the many females in Canada who are opposed to this, and who have suffered as a result of it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Closing your eyes and plugging your ears and hollering "la la la I can't hear you" doesn't work the way you seem to think.
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No, I actively seek out stories of TERF frustration to amuse myself. Are there any other Canadian examples besides that TERF shelter that shuttered rather than stop illegally discriminating that you're aware of?
 
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Meadmaker said:
Fine....but what do they do?

Two out of my three options involved lack of media attention or significant protest, but is it because the trans kids just use the locker room of their choice, and no one really cares, including the cis-girls in the locker rooms, or is it because everyone understands that the trans kids use a separate, more private, locker room, and no one really cares?
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What do people do when they want to illegally discriminate but can't and don't find much public sympathy? I suspect most of them just suck it up and accept the situation. Maybe they write a letter to the editor that likely isn't published. You know, loser stuff.
 
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I still love it. The whole routine of clutching your pearls and falling back on your fainting couch when it suggested that a woman with a penis being given the same threat vector as a man with a penis. "Why goodness surely you aren't suggesting that a transman is some sort of inherent threat? I mean what are they cismen?"

Again I do ever so adore watching two sides come up with cleverer and cleverer insults for each other, demonizing each other more and more, while "Okay yeah but the cismen, of course we have to keep them in check nobody is arguing that" is the only thing they agree on.
 
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