Cont: Texas bans abortion. Part 2

[Warp12]

Of course because the people involved here are the people they are, don't forget also that many of those arch conservatives are also at the same time trying to legislate against birth control. The lunatics in Michigan are right now attempting a law that is in direct contradiction of the Supreme Court reversal of Connecticut's anti-birth control law back in the 1960's. In many states, birth control is not readily available without examination and prescription.

So to the irresponsibility issue I say ******** unless one comes out in favor of universal, over the counter birth control for all - a great unlikelihood in an area where repressive, paternalistic religious ideas are aimed, not at the welfare and health of citizens, nor, really, at life itself, but at the sin of unsanctioned sex.

I am in favor of free birth control, community outreach programs, and education. I believe people should be provided the tools they need to make responsible, informed, and healthy choices regarding sexual activity.

One thing that kind of irks me, is that every time these issues are discussed, someone will imply that only religious people support restrictions on abortion. That is not the case, at all. There is a sense of morality that exists outside of religion, and everyone is not going to be in agreement on that matter.

From my nonreligious perspective, I consider legislation to eliminate term limits on abortion to be just as faulty as legislation to limit abortions to 8 weeks. There needs to be a middle ground. I believe that in many states, there is.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

There needs to be a middle ground.

OK, if you have a non-religious definition, then that means your thinking isn't handed down from a god, right? So, your rules are based on your own thinking, right? So, explain what your thinking is on why there has to be a "middle ground" and why it should be legislated by the state such that it is imposed on all people.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I am in favor of free birth control, community outreach programs, and education. I believe people should be provided the tools they need to make responsible, informed, and healthy choices regarding sexual activity.

One thing that kind of irks me, is that every time these issues are discussed, someone will imply that only religious people support restrictions on abortion. That is not the case, at all. There is a sense of morality that exists outside of religion, and everyone is not going to be in agreement on that matter.

From my nonreligious perspective, I consider legislation to eliminate term limits on abortion to be just as faulty as legislation to limit abortions to 8 weeks. There needs to be a middle ground. I believe that in many states, there is.

The only 100% way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. Is this what you are advocating for women to behave "responsibly"? All other birth control methods are not 100% effective.

 

[bruto]

I am in favor of free birth control, community outreach programs, and education. I believe people should be provided the tools they need to make responsible, informed, and healthy choices regarding sexual activity.

One thing that kind of irks me, is that every time these issues are discussed, someone will imply that only religious people support restrictions on abortion. That is not the case, at all. There is a sense of morality that exists outside of religion, and everyone is not going to be in agreement on that matter.

From my nonreligious perspective, I consider legislation to eliminate term limits on abortion to be just as faulty as legislation to limit abortions to 8 weeks. There needs to be a middle ground. I believe that in many states, there is.

OK, while I continue to disagree with you on the basic abortion issue (as we both know) I do acknowledge that you are on the right side with regard to birth control and education. It is unfortunate that for so many political leaders these two issues are tied together by their religious fanaticism. This is true, I think, whether or not you believe in the right to choose. Even if you do believe restrictive abortion laws are bad, the moral issue with regard to birth control is different, and makes the leap from the inappropriate to the inexcusable.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Meanwhile, in the Netherlands our government just voted to remove the mandatory 5 days waiting time for abortion and to allow GP's to prescribe abortion pills rather than trough a clinic.

Strangely enough there is no fear of recreational abortion.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The only 100% way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. Is this what you are advocating for women to behave "responsibly"? All other birth control methods are not 100% effective.

And of course avoid being raped. But I have heard that in legitimate rape pregnancy is not an issue. That is how you know the pregnant preteens were asking for it.

 

[Stacyhs]

Right wing looney Idaho has just passed a law outlawing abortion after 6 week and allowing family members to sue in the name of the unborn fetus based on the TX law.

The insanity spreads.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Hindsight being 20/20, the failure of liberals to ever codify abortion rights into federal law during any of their stints in power was a major mistake. Relying on a liberal SCOTUS to protect this controversial right in perpetuity was quite foolish, especially considering how clearly the right wing has been using the issue specifically as an organizing issue for their legal community.

Roe is going to be overturned, either explicitly or de-facto, in the very near future and the contest between these red states to prove they are the #1 anti-abortion psychos will continue unchecked.

 

[bruto]

Hindsight being 20/20, the failure of liberals to ever codify abortion rights into federal law during any of their stints in power was a major mistake. Relying on a liberal SCOTUS to protect this controversial right in perpetuity was quite foolish, especially considering how clearly the right wing has been using the issue specifically as an organizing issue for their legal community.

Roe is going to be overturned, either explicitly or de-facto, in the very near future and the contest between these red states to prove they are the #1 anti-abortion psychos will continue unchecked.

Alas, I think you're right in a way, though I am not convinced that even during times of Democratic majority power a federal law would have been a slam-dunk. But I do think people tended to relax and set the matter aside after Roe Vs. Wade, too reliant on the stickiness of precedent, and too little cognizant of the fact that the ruling in question is really only peripherally about abortion.

 

[Stacyhs]

Hindsight being 20/20, the failure of liberals to ever codify abortion rights into federal law during any of their stints in power was a major mistake. Relying on a liberal SCOTUS to protect this controversial right in perpetuity was quite foolish, especially considering how clearly the right wing has been using the issue specifically as an organizing issue for their legal community.

Roe is going to be overturned, either explicitly or de-facto, in the very near future and the contest between these red states to prove they are the #1 anti-abortion psychos will continue unchecked.

I was hoping that once Trump was out of office, the GOP would start to regain some sanity. Instead, they just seem to be getting crazier and crazier.

 

[johnny karate]

I am in favor of free birth control, community outreach programs, and education. I believe people should be provided the tools they need to make responsible, informed, and healthy choices regarding sexual activity.

*jerk-off motion*

When conservatives actually starting implementing these kinds of policies as part of their anti-abortion crusade - along with policies that address child welfare - maybe I'll believe you.

Until then, it's about nothing more than anti-science, anti-woman authoritarian control.

 

[Aridas]

*jerk-off motion*

When conservatives actually starting implementing these kinds of policies as part of their anti-abortion crusade - along with policies that address child welfare - maybe I'll believe you.

Until then, it's about nothing more than anti-science, anti-woman authoritarian control.

As a general rule, opinions don't need to be uniform within a group and, at last check, a sizable minority of GOP conservatives (possibly even a majority if one removes the religious conservatives) and a large majority of Democrat conservatives are supportive of women's rights here. I have no trouble believing that Warp12 holds said opinions and honestly don't think that smearing him with others' bad faith is all that appropriate.

To take a step further, though, as a general rule, abortion is not a desirable thing in the first place even if one is pro-choice, regardless of how much the forced birth crowd may try to confuse that issue to create confusions like that which Warp12 seems to demonstrate when it comes to his effective claim that abortion is being promoted and normalized by pro-choice policy. That honestly does sound sensible, for that matter, until one pays attention to history and the actual data at hand. The direct effects of pro-choice policy primarily just makes abortions that would have happened anyways dramatically safer and healthier all around (it's literally allowing access to health care, after all). The indirect effects are more nebulous and complicated, of course, which makes it easy for those so inclined to grasp on to individual parts of it that support a narrative, even if such doesn't generalize as well as they think.

 

[johnny karate]

As a general rule, opinions don't need to be uniform within a group and, at last check, a sizable minority of GOP conservatives (possibly even a majority if one removes the religious conservatives) and a large majority of Democrat conservatives are supportive of women's rights here. I have no trouble believing that Warp12 holds said opinions and honestly don't think that smearing him with others' bad faith is all that appropriate.

To take a step further, though, as a general rule, abortion is not a desirable thing in the first place even if one is pro-choice, regardless of how much the forced birth crowd may try to confuse that issue to create confusions like that which Warp12 seems to demonstrate when it comes to his effective claim that abortion is being promoted and normalized by pro-choice policy. That honestly does sound sensible, for that matter, until one pays attention to history and the actual data at hand. The direct effects of pro-choice policy primarily just makes abortions that would have happened anyways dramatically safer and healthier all around (it's literally allowing access to health care, after all). The indirect effects are more nebulous and complicated, of course, which makes it easy for those so inclined to grasp on to individual parts of it that support a narrative, even if such doesn't generalize as well as they think.

None of that requires me to believe it when a conservative makes those claims.

 

[bruto]

Agreeing with Aridas above, I find a very large number of things to disagree with Warp12 on - in fact almost everything right down to the virtue of desmodromic valves. But as he has not been at all shy about expressing opinions that are not at all popular, I see no reason to suspect he's lying when he expresses those that are.

As Aridas also points out, there's plenty of room for disagreement on what's left.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Two things are always pure B.S.

1. "I hold an opinion but I act in a way totally irrelevant or even counter to that opinion in everyday life."

Are you pro-abortion but only vote in anti-abortion politicians? Then guess what you're anti-abortion. And anti-abortion without modifiers. That's what being "for" or "against" something means.

2. "Not all Xs think Y, only the loud ones." If everyone in a group with a voice says one thing, then guess what that's the opinion of the group. That's what "group" means.

Join us next week for another episode of "Explaining what words mean."

 

[Dr. Keith]

Two things are always pure B.S.

1. "I hold an opinion but I act in a way totally irrelevant or even counter to that opinion in everyday life."

Are you pro-abortion but only vote in anti-abortion politicians? Then guess what you're anti-abortion. And anti-abortion without modifiers. That's what being "for" or "against" something means.

2. "Not all Xs think Y, only the loud ones." If everyone in a group with a voice says one thing, then guess what that's the opinion of the group. That's what "group" means.

Join us next week for another episode of "Explaining what words mean."

Why does everyone assume that I’m racist just because of my leadership role in the KKK? I just like these guys and enjoy the social interaction.

 

[tyr_13]

Two things are always pure B.S.

1. "I hold an opinion but I act in a way totally irrelevant or even counter to that opinion in everyday life."

Are you pro-abortion but only vote in anti-abortion politicians? Then guess what you're anti-abortion. And anti-abortion without modifiers. That's what being "for" or "against" something means.

2. "Not all Xs think Y, only the loud ones." If everyone in a group with a voice says one thing, then guess what that's the opinion of the group. That's what "group" means.

Join us next week for another episode of "Explaining what words mean."

While one could make some nuanced quibbles about competing priorities and values and all that true, fun stuff that detracts from you points here, it is much more satisfying to point out that the groups under discussion here generally show immense disdain for people who make statements of support without providing meaningful effort. What was it again?

Virtue signaling. That's the one.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I have no trouble believing that Warp12 holds said opinions and honestly don't think that smearing him with others' bad faith is all that appropriate.

Nor do I. The forum would be a lot less interesting if opposing views were not put forth.

 

[Aridas]

Stacys mentioned that Idaho's recently done a copycat. To poke at that further -

Idaho vigilante abortion ban raises the stakes to $20,000

It's not just Idaho that's earned recent news, of course.

'I don’t care how the conception occurred': Wisconsin lawmaker advocates for no abortion exceptions

And Tennessee's decided to go for an outright ban, by the look of it.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

It’s been pointed out various places that the way the law is written, the family of a rapist could sue the rape victim - and anyone who assisted her - if she got an abortion.

Really moving into Handmaid’s Tale territory now.