Should Ukraine give up?

[dudalb]

This is correct, and it does the 'west' no credit to fail to recognise the failings of the Ukrainian government and say that if they win then the post-war settlement must protect the rights of ethnic Russians.

Of course this does not justify Russia invading Ukraine.

Falling for Putin's propaganda hook,line, and sinker.
Thanks for reminding me why I don't have much respect of pacifists. THye often end up defending the indefensible in the interest of peace.They also seem willing to turn the world over to the Putin's and the Hitler.

As you statement about accepting temporaary dishoner inthe interest of peace, the sure worked well for Neville Chamberlain.

 

[dudalb]

At the beginning I said that the destruction of cities and the deaths of people was not worth the insistence on NATO membership.

The definition of the right to self determination and the language rights of minority groups are things the 'West' should have been requiring of Ukraine.

While nothing can justify the actions of Putin, if you are next to a bad tempered bear you don't poke it. Ukraine did take a series of deliberately provocative acts some of which (like language rights) are dubious under international law.

Ukraine being in NATO is a 'Cuban missile crisis' moment for Russia. The US was prepared to go to war over this. There have been many senior US diplomats who said that they advised against expansion of NATO east, and that a demilitarised neutral buffer was safer.

By militarising the civilian population and turning residential areas into strong points turns these into legitimate military targets. The Ukraine government could have adopted an open city policy. Russia never had enough troops to occupy all of Ukraine.

Putin is going to lose power relatively soon (probably by death from natural causes given his age). As we see from nationalist movements round the world the existence of nations does not disappear because of political systems.

I know others disagree but I think temporary dishonour is better than death and destruction. The problem is that with so many deaths and so much destruction it is now very difficult for either side to give up anything; because the cost would be too high. The best time for peace was right at the beginning.

Drop the pro forma condemantion of Putin. You are defending him, and are fooling nobody with that phony condemnation.
Glad you think bombing of maternal hospitals far away from military targets is OK.
And your willingness to sell the freedom of the people of Uraien into slavery is touching.
But thanks for showing us the Left at it's absolute worst.

 

[Andy_Ross]

At the beginning I said that the destruction of cities and the deaths of people was not worth the insistence on NATO membership.

The definition of the right to self determination and the language rights of minority groups are things the 'West' should have been requiring of Ukraine.

While nothing can justify the actions of Putin, if you are next to a bad tempered bear you don't poke it. Ukraine did take a series of deliberately provocative acts some of which (like language rights) are dubious under international law.

Ukraine being in NATO is a 'Cuban missile crisis' moment for Russia. The US was prepared to go to war over this. There have been many senior US diplomats who said that they advised against expansion of NATO east, and that a demilitarised neutral buffer was safer.

By militarising the civilian population and turning residential areas into strong points turns these into legitimate military targets. The Ukraine government could have adopted an open city policy. Russia never had enough troops to occupy all of Ukraine.

Putin is going to lose power relatively soon (probably by death from natural causes given his age). As we see from nationalist movements round the world the existence of nations does not disappear because of political systems.

I know others disagree but I think temporary dishonour is better than death and destruction. The problem is that with so many deaths and so much destruction it is now very difficult for either side to give up anything; because the cost would be too high. The best time for peace was right at the beginning.

So you are for appeasement towards Russia?

What bit of Europe should roll over for him next?

 

[dudalb]

So you are for appeasement towards Russia?

What bit of Europe should roll over for him next?

I love the way he blames the Ukrainians for all the deaths from Russian bombing and shelling.

 

[theprestige]

We absolutely 100% should.

It should be a non-negotiable prerequisite, a sine-qua-non, before any talks about joining EU ever even just begin.

We were talking about conditions for a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia.

Russia has no standing to tell Ukraine which languages should be official in Ukraine. Making Russian an official language in Ukraine is not a justification for invading Ukraine. Making Russian an official language in Ukraine is not a legitimate condition for Russia to cease fire and withdraw from Ukraine.

 

[jimbob]

At the beginning I said that the destruction of cities and the deaths of people was not worth the insistence on NATO membership.

The definition of the right to self determination and the language rights of minority groups are things the 'West' should have been requiring of Ukraine.

While nothing can justify the actions of Putin, if you are next to a bad tempered bear you don't poke it. Ukraine did take a series of deliberately provocative acts some of which (like language rights) are dubious under international law.

Ukraine being in NATO is a 'Cuban missile crisis' moment for Russia. The US was prepared to go to war over this. There have been many senior US diplomats who said that they advised against expansion of NATO east, and that a demilitarised neutral buffer was safer.

By militarising the civilian population and turning residential areas into strong points turns these into legitimate military targets. The Ukraine government could have adopted an open city policy. Russia never had enough troops to occupy all of Ukraine.

Putin is going to lose power relatively soon (probably by death from natural causes given his age). As we see from nationalist movements round the world the existence of nations does not disappear because of political systems.

I know others disagree but I think temporary dishonour is better than death and destruction. The problem is that with so many deaths and so much destruction it is now very difficult for either side to give up anything; because the cost would be too high. The best time for peace was right at the beginning.

All very well if you take Putin's claims at face value. However we know that they are lies.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Its very easy for you to say, you're not watching your nation be destroyed. And you're not faced with the decision to compromise or face annihilation.

NATO is a great ally, but only when you're a member. No one is fighting for Ukraine and they are losing.

In what universe are Ukraine losing?

Russia is "winning" so well it's started to run out of its own people and started pushing Syrians into the meat grinder.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In what universe are Ukraine losing?

Russia is "winning" so well it's started to run out of its own people and started pushing Syrians into the meat grinder.

Having a war occur on your territory, rather than your enemy's, is generally considered suboptimal.

Ukraine will continue to pile up civilian casualties and suffer general societal destruction the longer the war drags on, no matter who is killing more enemy soldiers.

 

[Oystein]

We were talking about conditions for a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia.

Russia has no standing to tell Ukraine which languages should be official in Ukraine. Making Russian an official language in Ukraine is not a justification for invading Ukraine. Making Russian an official language in Ukraine is not a legitimate condition for Russia to cease fire and withdraw from Ukraine.

I highlighted the words I laughed at bitterly, seeing which country is standing with 150,000 troops in which country, shelling it violently, and which country is essentially begging the other for mercy.

If Russia were to agree to a peace deal if only Russian became an official language, wouldn't that be GREAT? I mean, Ukraine would give up essentially NOTHING at all, as granting minorities the right to use their language is universally considered to go without saying.

Would you PREFER Ukraine give up Donbas?

 

[Andy_Ross]

I highlighted the words I laughed at bitterly, seeing which country is standing with 150,000 troops in which country, shelling it violently, and which country is essentially begging the other for mercy.

If Russia were to agree to a peace deal if only Russian became an official language, wouldn't that be GREAT? I mean, Ukraine would give up essentially NOTHING at all, as granting minorities the right to use their language is universally considered to go without saying.

Would you PREFER Ukraine give up Donbas?

Ukraine should not give up anything.

 

[Oystein]

So you are for appeasement towards Russia?

What bit of Europe should roll over for him next?

What course of action do you propose?
Please be specific - including how many hundreds of millions of deaths you would be cool with if things go wrong, and how many years you propose that Moscow be occupied by how large a force.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If Russia were to agree to a peace deal if only Russian became an official language, wouldn't that be GREAT?

NO!

Because then Russia will just invade another country get what they want.

YOU DON'T GIVE THE WRONG SIDE WHAT THEY WANT UNLESS YOU WANT TO REWARD THEIR BEHAVIOR.

How in the name of Zeus's butthole do you still not get this?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Having a war occur on your territory, rather than your enemy's, is generally considered suboptimal.

Ukraine will continue to pile up civilian casualties and suffer general societal destruction the longer the war drags on, no matter who is killing more enemy soldiers.

Oh absolutely, but the claim was that Ukraine was "losing" the war. By what metric, exactly? From where I'm sat it's a slowly moving stalemate for the most part.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I highlighted the words I laughed at bitterly, seeing which country is standing with 150,000 troops in which country, shelling it violently, and which country is essentially begging the other for mercy.

If Russia were to agree to a peace deal if only Russian became an official language, wouldn't that be GREAT? I mean, Ukraine would give up essentially NOTHING at all, as granting minorities the right to use their language is universally considered to go without saying.

Would you PREFER Ukraine give up Donbas?

I'd prefer that Russia was bombed into the ground personally.

Ukraine should give up nothing.

 

[theprestige]

In what universe are Ukraine losing?

This universe. The universe where Russians have occupied Ukrainian territory, surrounded Ukrainian cities, and shows no sign so far of reversing those gains. The universe in which this conflict is on course to end with tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Ukrainians in Russian-occupied territory, looking at a future of ethnic cleansing and genocide. The universe in which Western Europe will look on in horror at the atrocities being committed in Russian-occupied Ukraine, while simultaneously patting itself on the back for wisely letting Ukrainians fight and suffer and die to improve Western Europe's security instead of getting directly involved themselves. This universe is the one where Ukraine is losing.

Is Russia losing this thing? Yes. Is Ukraine also losing this thing? Also yes. Not as quickly or as completely as Putin no doubt intended, but losing they are, and even a partial loss will be terrible for Ukraine.

ETA:

Oh absolutely, but the claim was that Ukraine was "losing" the war. By what metric, exactly? From where I'm sat it's a slowly moving stalemate for the most part.

By the metrics of the number of square miles of previously-sovereign Ukraine occupied by Russia, and the number of Ukrainian citizens under the Russian bootheel.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This isn't a ******* sport. It's war. One side can fail to win and the other side can still lose.

 

[theprestige]

I highlighted the words I laughed at bitterly, seeing which country is standing with 150,000 troops in which country, shelling it violently, and which country is essentially begging the other for mercy.

If Russia were to agree to a peace deal if only Russian became an official language, wouldn't that be GREAT? I mean, Ukraine would give up essentially NOTHING at all, as granting minorities the right to use their language is universally considered to go without saying.

Would you PREFER Ukraine give up Donbas?

At least there's no more confusion about this being an EU membership question.

Yes, if that were Putin's only demand, and if there was any reason to trust his word in this, sure, I'd say that as illegitimate and morally depraved as such a peace demand would be, Ukraine should accept it, accept Donbass, accept Crimea, and accept NATO membership, and count itself lucky.

If.

But we both know that's not going to happen. And we both know that none of this makes Russia's demand for an official language in Ukraine legitimate.

 

[dudalb]

In what universe are Ukraine losing?

Russia is "winning" so well it's started to run out of its own people and started pushing Syrians into the meat grinder.

And Russia might well default on it's debts in the next few days which would totally destroy what is left of the ruble. Wining indeed/

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yay a financially collapsed dictatorship with nuclear weapons. That sounds like a recipe for fun. *Unenthusiastically blows one of those party favor with the paper tube and whistle sound*

 

[MarkCorrigan]

This isn't a ******* sport. It's war. One side can fail to win and the other side can still lose.

True, but I think that at the end of the war, when Russia has pulled out with it's tail between it's legs and economy ruined, no one will want to help them build back up, but Ukraine will be rebuilt with support. It might even join the EU and NATO.

Yes, what is happening in Ukraine is horrible. The loss of life is horrific and they are certainly getting the **** kicked out of them as it stands, but I have no doubts that when it's all over and done with, Ukraine will come out of this with a lot more international support than it had before and will, eventually, be able to rebuild to be stronger than it was before. Russia will be lucky to be a 3rd world banana republic. Most likely it will end up as a puppet of China.

I consider what is happening to the Ukraine to be terrible. I don't think that they are "losing" the war. South Korea weren't "losing" the Korean War even though thousands of civilians were dying to Northern aggression. Britain was getting bombed virtually every day by the Luftewaffe during WWII and losing civilians by the bucketload, they weren't "losing" the war. War is horrible and people die. That doesn't mean that the side losing civilians are losing.