Cont: Cancel culture IRL Part 2

[Lithrael]

Just for the record here I’m not defending these from the charges of being Cancel Culture because I approve of them as a whole. Some (like Cardiff) seem pretty reasonable and others smack of black and white thinking (I like the Twitter post going around reminding you not to harass Russian-themed local businesses, “the 50 year old grandmother who sells piroshki did not invade Ukraine”). I’m defending them from being given a less than useless label in general and more vigorously defending specific cases from even being the thing that the label-makers are trying to rally people to get upset about.

ETA oh yes and also wondering why all the ones getting publicity from the usual suspects count while ones about banning books and bowdlerising grade school educational materials don’t.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Wow - how terrible they decided to be sensitive about a current war in which people are being killed. You seem to have missed the following (highlight and bold by me):

.... “In light of the recent Russian invasion of Ukraine, Cardiff Philharmonic Orchestra, with the agreement of St David’s Hall, feel the previously advertised programme including the 1812 Overture to be inappropriate at this time.....


.....“member of the orchestra has family directly involved in the Ukraine situation and we are trying to respect that situation during the immediate term”.

“There were also two military-themed pieces as part of the programme – Marche Salve and 1812 Overture – that we felt were particularly inappropriate at this time.”​

How dare an orchestra decide for itself that a current war in which a member's family is involved is a reason to change some of their programme at this time!

Could you help with the following and fill in the blanks:

They should not have changed their programme because ....... ?

This is "cancel culture" because...... ?

This is cancel culture because... Tchaikovsky has been dead for over a hundred years, and has nothing at all to do with the current conflict other than the coincidence of his birthplace.

FFS, it's as stupid as cancelling algebra because of a conflict in the middle east. It's absurd virtue signaling. Next step: Cancelling Handel and Beethoven because of nazis...

 

[JoeMorgue]

So what should happen?

Here. Take a gun. Go make the orchestra put on the concert against their will.

Or sit there and stammer "Nobody's saying that!" but never clarify what they do mean or some other none answer.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Russian anything has bad optics right now.

That right there ^ That's an inane sentiment. The entirety of Russian history, art, and culture - including things well over a hundred years old - somehow have "bad optics" because they came from the same geographical location as Putin. This take guilt by association to a whole new level of dumbness.

 

[EaglePuncher]

It's absurd virtue signaling

On the hitlist of meaningless phrases this one comes in a close second place after cancel culture. I don't want to derail this thread but I am interest in how our local conservatives would define this phrase...because "This person [who decided that certain musical pieces would not be played] only pretends to care about Ukraine, only does it for attention and feelgood" sounds stupid as ****...

I would propose a seperate thread for "virtue signalling" but I guess it will be the same vague ******** as this thread.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay but does the virtue signaling about critical race theory mean that the PC Police are just canceling......

 

[tyr_13]

Just for the record here I’m not defending these from the charges of being Cancel Culture because I approve of them as a whole. Some (like Cardiff) seem pretty reasonable and others smack of black and white thinking (I like the Twitter post going around reminding you not to harass Russian-themed local businesses, “the 50 year old grandmother who sells piroshki did not invade Ukraine”). I’m defending them from being given a less than useless label in general and more vigorously defending specific cases from even being the thing that the label-makers are trying to rally people to get upset about.

ETA oh yes and also wondering why all the ones getting publicity from the usual suspects count while ones about banning books and bowdlerising grade school educational materials don’t.

Because using the force of law to compel people to cancel gay and trans kids (and jail their families) can't count for...reasons.

It doesn't advance the 'right' side of the culture wars. That's it. That's all it is ever going to be. The most you will get is some Sea Lion saying a single 'well I don't agree with it' before getting back to real questions about which piece of music to play, or who the latest unhinged bigoted conspiracy theorist Disney has declined to employ is.


EDIT: Life in ******* prison isn't nearly as 'canceled' as not getting to star in a Disney+ series.

 

[johnny karate]

This is cancel culture because... Tchaikovsky has been dead for over a hundred years, and has nothing at all to do with the current conflict other than the coincidence of his birthplace.

FFS, it's as stupid as cancelling algebra because of a conflict in the middle east. It's absurd virtue signaling. Next step: Cancelling Handel and Beethoven because of nazis...

I can't think of anything that looks more like "virtue signaling" than being this outraged and using this level of hyperbole about something so inconsequential.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But nowhere in there was it explained why it's a problem.

An individual person is being effectively punished for the sin of having been born in the same country as Putin, despite that individual not having done anything objectionable.

Do you genuinely see nothing wrong with that?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Refusing to perform a long dead Russian composer's work is dumb as hell, but it's hard to see how it's "cancel culture" rather than the common type of racism/nationalism that gets drummed up commonly as a result of war fever.

I expect more idiotic "Freedom fries-ification" to come as a reaction to the Russian invasion before it's all done.

I don't think it's "cancel culture" exactly, but I do think it's pretty idiotic virtue signaling that is cancel-culture-ish in effect.

Actually, I think it's worse than cancel culture. At least with Cancel Culture, it's generally enacting social punishments on a person for something that person actually did... even if the reasoning is wafer thin and stupid.

This isn't even that. This is punishing people for something that SOMEONE ELSE did, that the individuals being punished can't possibly impact in any way whatsoever. They're being punished for simply being the same nationality as Putin. FFS, they're punishing a DEAD GUY for the sin of being Russian! It's so dumb and pandering I run out of words for it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We are literally never going to advance beyond "It's bad when social pressure is used against me instead of me using it against other people."

Literally nobody in this thread thinks that. How big of a strawman are you going to erect here?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Literally nobody in this thread thinks that. How big of a strawman are you going to erect here?

It's obviously apparent that the only common denominator for the ever ambiguous definition of "cancel culture" is what Joe describes.

Cancel culture is when liberals/progressives/leftists get mad at something

 

[Emily's Cat]

An orchestra choosing not to play certain pieces of music or host certain musicians to avoid potential public backlash is a problem that merits multiple posts.

Mostly because it's stupid and idiotic. It's absurd virtue signaling and anticipating that people will be up in arms because "OMG IT'S RUSSIAN THEREFORE EVIL". It's the kind of stupidity I would expect everyone here on ISF to note as being dumb and irrational and something we as humans should try to avoid. I'm a bit floored by the number of people who are arguing that this is a perfectly fine reaction and no big deal.

An educator getting fired for telling second-graders that butts exist to avoid potential public backlash does not even get mentioned.

I had not heard of that until now. That is also exceedingly dumb and stupid and I don't have enough words for the inanity of firing someone over reading a book that includes the word "butt"... because someone *might* complain, even though nobody *has* complained.

Kids think butts and farts are funny. Hell, adults think butts and farts are funny. Because butts and farts are funny. FFS, everyone has lost their goddamned minds.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's obviously apparent that the only common denominator for the ever ambiguous definition of "cancel culture" is what Joe describes.

Cancel culture is when liberals/progressives/leftists get mad at something

Nah. I tire of your constant need to cast principles as "right wing" and turn everything into partisan bickering.

When people get mad about stupid ******* things, and then punish people because they're mad about stupid ******* things, I have a problem with it. I don't care what their political preference is, I care that the world is being run by people who are both dumb AND authoritarian.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Nah. I tire of your constant need to cast principles as "right wing" and turn everything into partisan bickering.

When people get mad about stupid ******* things, and then punish people because they're mad about stupid ******* things, I have a problem with it. I don't care what their political preference is, I care that the world is being run by people who are both dumb AND authoritarian.

There's probably a principled position to hold that people should be able to say whatever they like and not face any meaningful consequences. I don't find that very convincing, but I suppose it's an honest argument.

It's quite clear by those trying to insist cancel culture is some great menace that this attitude only applies in certain situations. The pattern is undeniable.

You'd have to bury your head in the sand to not see how this made-up crisis is being cynically wielded by the right.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Literally nobody in this thread thinks that. How big of a strawman are you going to erect here?

Literally everyone in this thread who is arguing against Cancel Culture has argued nothing BUT that because they can't be arsed to actually explain what they mean and every example is exactly that.

The 100,000th use of "strawman" to mean nothing but "You made my argument look bad by accurately describing it back to me" notwithstanding.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There's probably a principled position to hold that people should be able to say whatever they like and not face any meaningful consequences. I don't find that very convincing, but I suppose it's an honest argument.

How about the principle of the consequences should be reasonable with respect to the magnitude of the offense? Is that such a crazy principle to hold? Like, you know, not punishing a teacher for using a foreign word that sounds like an bad word in English... even though the teacher was pretty clear that it was a foreign word?

And why the hell isn't anyone calling for Trevor Noah to face "meaningful consequences" for his bit in Son of Patricia?

It's quite clear by those trying to insist cancel culture is some great menace that this attitude only applies in certain situations. The pattern is undeniable.

You'd have to bury your head in the sand to not see how this made-up crisis is being cynically wielded by the right.

Again, this is you. Well and several other people too. Posters who cannot seem to distinguish between something that liberal posters view as a principle, which also is something that some conservatives view as a principle... and a view that TURNS SOMEONE INTO a conservative.

Holy cow. I'm opposed to murder. Guess what? Most conservatives are also opposed to murder. By the logic expressed in this thread (and many others) that means that anyone who is opposed to murder is an evil stinking deplorable conservative!

FFS, this is so beyond any kind of basic reasoning that I despair for the future of our species.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Trying to pretend "Cancel Culture" isn't just something the Right made up because they are pissed and scared that the "Little People" now have methods to fight back against them doesn't push you any further into the "You're being honest and/or know what you are talking about" side of things.

Jesus Christ people you have to stop being wrong about literally everything if you to maintain the moral high ground.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Trying to pretend "Cancel Culture" isn't just something the Right made up because they are pissed and scared that the "Little People" now have methods to fight back against them doesn't push you any further into the "You're being honest and/or know what you are talking about" side of things.

Jesus Christ people you have to stop being wrong about literally everything if you to maintain the moral high ground.

Your entire premise is flawed. You've ascribed it solely to "The Right", even though the majority of people in this thread are not at all on the right.

Additionally, you seem to be glossing over the fact that several of the instances brought up are cases of people on the left being cancelled by people on the left.

 

[johnny karate]

An individual person is being effectively punished for the sin of having been born in the same country as Putin, despite that individual not having done anything objectionable.

Do you genuinely see nothing wrong with that?

No one is being punished, effectively or otherwise.

In the course of exercising freedom of association - which I assume you're not against - people and organizations make decisions all the time regarding who they choose to be or not be associated with for a variety of reasons. Not everyone else will agree with those reasons, nor do they need to.

This is not punitive.

This is how society does and always has functioned.