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The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

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JoeMorgue said:
Yeah but, and this is point people keep missing, is that nobody thought that the best time to loudly and "lookit me" bring that up was WHILE THE ALLIES WERE LIBERATING THE GERMAN CAMPS.

When people are doing good things, you can just let do good things, nobody needs hear from the "Nobody is perfect" squad.

This really is the one time when the Left becomes toxic and functionally identical to how the Right is all the time, when they take as their mission in life to bring everyone doing anything good for the sin of not being perfect and it creates this narrative where nobody is good enough to actually make anything better.

I'm sorry that so many people think that if they Quantum Leaped into a soldier on Omaha Beach on D-Day the best thing to do would be to turn to the man fighting beside you and go "You know, America isn't perfect."
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Are we at a "liberating the German camps" moment right now? It doesn't seem that way to me. Even so, when was the right time to call attention to US concentration camps, then? I don't want to drag this into US Politics, but I can sympathize with the people you're criticizing. It seems it's never the right time to address flaws in one's own forces. "Not yet" becomes "too late" without an instant of "now's a good time" in between.
 
I don't get it either Joe. Sure, if something big happens then it should be brought up, say if Ukraine were found to have committed war crimes or something, but the obsessive need to assert that no one is pure is, at best, the kind of action taken by a useful idiot.

On a purely ideological standpoint, I don't agree with Volodymyr Zelenskyy on a fair few things. I'm considerably further to the left than he is, although I do love his anti-corruption stance. That being said though, were I in some parallel dimension in which I could vote for him during the crisis I absolutely would.

I don't agree with everything Emmanuel Macron does either, and I probably wouldn't vote for him if I were French in the first round of voting, but I damn sure agree with his sending of weapons to Ukraine. Further, if the choice were between him and le Pen? He gets my vote every. Single. Time.

I don't much like the CDU in Germany, but I do like what the German government are doing.

Just because neither side is absolutely pure doesn't mean that there is some kind of equivalence in every conflict. Sometimes one side is just wrong, even if the other side aren't perfect.
 
Ryokan said:
The Russians are attacking Kharkiv as a rescue operation, to rescue Indian students who are trapped because the Russians are attacking Kharkiv?
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That sounds more sensible and rational than what Putin was and is claiming are his "reasons".
 
theprestige said:
I'd say we are at war,
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That's debatable, isn't it? If you asked your head of government right now: "Are we at war with Russia?", what would he or she answer?
If you asked a scholar of international law: "Are we at war with Russia?", what would he or she answer?

Who decides whether or not we are at war - and how?
In my country (and I am sure: in yours, too), it is the parliament which ultimately must decide that question - and it hasn't done that yet. Sure, the government must act, and it consults with its parliament delegations to ensure it will have a majority. But my government has not yet said that we are at war with Russia. I don't think we are: We have no intention of sending any soldiers to fight.

theprestige said:
and that propaganda is a tool of war, and that it's therefore easy enough to answer the question: Shut down the enemy's tools of war, silence their propaganda outlets.
...
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I agree with that, I am quite happy to see RT etc shut down - but they are actually challenging some decisions in court, and I have not seen that's been decided yet. ("Some decisions" referring to the fact that there are several decisions taken by several actors to black-out Russian state media: private social media companies, state airwaves regulators...)
 
What strikes me as bizarre about this whole situation is the weird way that the western media (I'm looking at you BBC) and even the experts are treating the Russian incompetence so far. They all seem to be convinced, absolutely convinced, that any day now Russia will get its act together and use that incredible military might to roll over the Ukrainians. Any day now they will fix their logistics and their troops will no longer be starving, poorly supplied conscripts with zero morale and no fuel. Any day now that "armoured column" will roll right into Kyiv and Volodymyr Zelenskyy will be captured or killed.

No one seems to consider the increasingly likely possibility that they won't fix their "mistakes" because they aren't mistakes. The Russian military is just that flat out rubbish. They won't get their logistics in order because their logistical corps are corrupt, inefficient and not fit for task. They won't bring that huge military might to bear because it isn't actually there. Sure they have loads of tanks and IFVs, but they don't seem to have any fuel for them, do they? Sure they have loads of bodies to throw into the meat grinder, but those soldiers don't seem to have enough food to even hold their territorial gains let alone expand.

I don't understand why no one is even considering that the Russians are failing because they were always going to fail. That they haven't achieved their objectives not because of mistakes and bad luck but because they aren't actually capable of doing it.

How many days of Russia basically faceplanting over and over again will it take for people to realise that they can't do any better?
 
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crescent said:
:rolleyes:Jeez, that really sucks. Those poor Brits will now be forced to pay SpaceX to launch them instead. And that's terrible, because SpaceX launches them for 1/3 the cost. I mean, the poor British government will now be forced to launch three satellites for what the Russians charged to launch one.:rolleyes:
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They will have to get the satellites back of the Russians first.
 
EA Sports pulls Russian teams and clubs from video games: EA Sports will remove the Russian national team and all Russian club teams from FIFA 22, FIFA Mobile, FIFA online, and NHL 22, the video game company announced on Wednesday.
 
theprestige said:
... Remember that India is also looking at China and Pakistan. ...
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Both traditional rivals or outright enemies of India - and friends of Russia in the current situation (albeit China perhaps with a steady cringe). Interesting situation!
 
There was widespread opposition to the US entering WWII right up until and a little bit after WWII. There was significantly less but still opposition afterward. There is a long term thread of "yeah but...." in the US.

Then there was the Commies, the CPUSA was all against the war, right up until the Germans invaded Russia.

edit: Really, except for the CPUSA, turns out to be one of the few Commie parties to remain anti-fascist during the Hitler-Stalin pact.
 
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Oystein said:
Both traditional rivals or outright enemies of India - and friends of Russia in the current situation (albeit China perhaps with a steady cringe). Interesting situation!
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Yea, it's a bit surprising that the thing that is uniting Pakistan and India is supporting a ruthless dictator.

*looks at the state of Pakistan and India*

Oh wait no it isn't.
 
Michel H said:
I don't think Putin has just one goal. He has several goals, some of which seem legitimate (Crimea in Russia, Donetsk and Lugansk independent), some are perhaps dubious, but perhaps negotiable (Ukraine doesn't join NATO), and some are completely unacceptable (e.g. Ukraine should become a vassal state of Russia).

The best approach would be to talk to him, while not coming completely empty-handed (as the West usually is). For example, they might say:"OK Mr. Putin, we are sorry, we made a mistake, what about a recognition that Crimea is Russian, and that the two republics are independent. What this be enough to stop your 'special military operation?' ". I think this would be a good start for a useful conversation.

Of course, should Putin somehow agree to withdraw his troops now, this offers no real guarantee for the future, but a method which has worked now might work again later.

There seems to be a very scary inability of the West to make any concession right now, that's not a good thing.
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I don't think you understand this situation at all. This attack is simply an object lesson to Ukraine (including Donbass and Crimea) and the rest of the former Eastern Block. The only reason Putin is even making empty gestures at negotiation is because he dramatically underestimated the Ukrainian resistance, the economic attack from most of the rest of the world, and the propaganda catastrophe he's been forced to suffer.
 
Ukraine wants Russia to be severed from the global internet.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/02/tech/ukraine-russia-internet/index.html

Okay I'm not sure how I feel about this idea, but I will admit part of me wants it to happens to see

A) How many trolls and bots just magically disappear from the internet
B) How many trolls suddenly don't know how to troll because they aren't getting their marching orders.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Ukraine wants Russia to be severed from the global internet.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/02/tech/ukraine-russia-internet/index.html

Okay I'm not sure how I feel about this idea, but I will admit part of me wants it to happens to see

A) How many trolls and bots just magically disappear from the internet
B) How many trolls suddenly don't know how to troll because they aren't getting their marching orders.
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It would probably be more bad than good in the long run.
A) bad precedent.
B) Its probably one of the few ways the average Russian can get decent information at this point.
 
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Aidoneus said:
So your solution is to appease Putin now, and then maybe hope he can be appeased with more concessions the next time he invades?

Do you not see the flaw in your logic there?
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No, it's not a logic of "always more concessions to appease the dictator".

I believe there are some concessions the West could and should make, but I am unable to say whether this would "appease" the Russian president.

As for the next time, we'll see what happens then.

I see that I am now being compared with Adolf, I wonder if the person who said this really read my posts about WW2 in this thread (of course, they were all sent to AAH, that doesn't make it easier).

I can no longer read RT.com in Belgium, this seems to be censorship. I am always interested in knowing the Russian point of view.
 
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