The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

[Michel H]

So what makes you think that recognising Crimea and the two republics as well as stopping sanctions is going to keep Putin from going after the rest of Ukraine once the opportunity presents itself? If he lied about the reasons for the war, why would granting him those things keep him from going after his actual aim?

I don't think Putin has just one goal. He has several goals, some of which seem legitimate (Crimea in Russia, Donetsk and Lugansk independent), some are perhaps dubious, but perhaps negotiable (Ukraine doesn't join NATO), and some are completely unacceptable (e.g. Ukraine should become a vassal state of Russia).

The best approach would be to talk to him, while not coming completely empty-handed (as the West usually is). For example, they might say:"OK Mr. Putin, we are sorry, we made a mistake, what about a recognition that Crimea is Russian, and that the two republics are independent. What this be enough to stop your 'special military operation?' ". I think this would be a good start for a useful conversation.

Of course, should Putin somehow agree to withdraw his troops now, this offers no real guarantee for the future, but a method which has worked now might work again later.

There seems to be a very scary inability of the West to make any concession right now, that's not a good thing.

 

[trustbutverify]

Eastern Ukraine joins Russia, western and central Ukraine joins NATO.

Everybody happy!!! War over.

Sounds about right to me.

 

[tyr_13]

(snip)

ETA2: On the diplomatic and PR side of things, Ukraine is really getting hammered on the Indian student thing. Indian politicians are now claiming that Ukraine is holding the students hostage and the Russian attack on Kharkiv is starting to be presented as a rescue operation. India is pushing on this issue at the U.N. and Ukrainian diplomats are stuck dealing with this issue at the U.N. instead of dealing with the actual invasion of their country.

From a diplomatic and PR side, it should not take much effort to say 'if Russia were not attacking the students from India wouldn't even have to leave' several times.

EDIT: 'The Russians are almost a rescue operation.'

'Who are they being rescued from?'

 

[timhau]

Crimea is a red herring.

Ukraine didn't recognize it - but had no plans to recapture it. None at all. Zip, zero, a big fat nothing.

A woman gets a car in a divorce settlement. The Ex-husband really liked that car. So he steals it from her.

Wife refuses give him the ownership paperwork - but does nothing else.

So he beats the ever-loving crap out of her, kills her dog, torches her house and rapes her.

Michel says "It's partly her fault, she should have just signed the car over to him."

The only remaining question is why we should care what he thinks.

 

[Klimax]

You want to reward Putin for doing something very bad, instead of resisting him and his evil deeds. Why is your solution to evil always to back down and let it win?

It worked for Heinlein Konrad, so why not for Michel H. (That H reminds me of certain name given content of the posts...)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-authorities-citizens-dont-declare-063528451.html

Two things, invasion is about to fail hard. There is one group of people who is excellent in recycling anything metal and they'll be joined by others to get funds to replace their lost homes.
Second, it hilariously values Russian tanks...

 

[dasmiller]

deleted

 

[Beelzebuddy]

The only remaining question is why we should care what he thinks.

Because he is wrong on the Internet, sir!

 

[theprestige]

As a general rule, Freedom of Speech is precisely the freedom to say what another finds wrong and despicable.
Yes, in general, we SHOULD indeed tolerate lies and manipulative language.

There are two situations where a liberal society would be well advised to setr limits to Rights:
1. When and where exercise of one person's rights infringes on the Rights of another
2. In war

We are not at war - or are we?
So what Rights, whose Rights, are tread upon now by the likes of RT spreading Russian state lies? That's not an easy question to answer using consistent standards, or is it?

I'd say we are at war, and that propaganda is a tool of war, and that it's therefore easy enough to answer the question: Shut down the enemy's tools of war, silence their propaganda outlets.

The right to keep and bear arms doesn't even enter into the discussion of whether it's ethically consistent to shoot enemy soldiers who are bearing arms.

 

[Aidoneus]

Of course, should Putin somehow agree to withdraw his troops now, this offers no real guarantee for the future, but a method which has worked now might work again later.

There seems to be a very scary inability of the West to make any concession right now, that's not a good thing.

So your solution is to appease Putin now, and then maybe hope he can be appeased with more concessions the next time he invades?

Do you not see the flaw in your logic there?

 

[Arcade22]

Still lots of drama about Indian students stuck in Ukraine. There seem to be hundreds thousands of them stuck in Kharkiv. The Indian government is claiming that the Ukrainians are refusing to let them leave, and that Russia is offering them safe passage.

This is the same Indian government that didn't initiate an evacuation earlier because it believed Mr. Putin when he claimed Russia would not invade.


ETA: An article on the subject:

A blow-by-blow account of an Indian student trying – and failing – to escape Kharkhiv in Ukraine

(my guess is that the trains are either full of women and children being evacuated, or might not be running at all because there's a hell of a war going on and transport isn't safe).

ETA2: On the diplomatic and PR side of things, Ukraine is really getting hammered on the Indian student thing. Indian politicians are now claiming that Ukraine is holding the students hostage and the Russian attack on Kharkiv is starting to be presented as a rescue operation. India is pushing on this issue at the U.N. and Ukrainian diplomats are stuck dealing with this issue at the U.N. instead of dealing with the actual invasion of their country.

It's the Indian right-wing ******** machine which is naturally friendly towards Putin and hostile towards "the west". There's a lot of common ground between these forces in that they are both authoritarian, illiberal and tends toward imperialism. They share the same kind of feeling of historical national humiliation by "the west" that is now going to be "corrected" with their glorious leader.

 

[trustbutverify]

Again one day, God willing, I'll find a woman who loves me as much as internet free speech advocates love Nazis, Racists, and Totalitarians.

That's a tough ask.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again I repeat my earlier observation that had WWII happened in 2022 we'd have to put up with a lot of people who were suddenly in interested in Hitler's freedom of speech and pointing out that the allies weren't perfect either.

 

[Ryokan]

(There's a sad truth there, as there's no doubt that many Ukrainians will end up in prisons and camps and such. For years and years, even if the war somehow ends in total defeat of the Russian Army in Ukraine [which I think is profoundly unlikley]. Russia will continue to prosecute captured Ukrainians for disloyalty, regardless of the outcome of the war. That's how Russia rolls.).

They are still trying to bring to justice Baltic citizens who refused military service in the 80s.

 

[theprestige]

It's the Indian right-wing ******** machine which is naturally friendly towards Putin and hostile towards "the west". There's a lot of common ground between these forces. They share the same kind of feeling of historical national humiliation by "the west" that is now going to be "corrected" with their glorious leader.

The Indians are also buying a lot of Russian military equipment to modernize their army (bizarre as it may seem, India's economy is more capable of improving and upgrading and even maintaining the Russian designs than the Russian economy right now). So some of this pro-Russia stance may be a matter of India knowing what side its bread is buttered on. Remember that India is also looking at China and Pakistan. We don't begrudge the Finns for taking sides in WW2 based on their own interest in national survival.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Again I repeat my earlier observation that had WWII happened in 2022 we'd have to put up with a lot of people who were suddenly in interested in Hitler's freedom of speech and pointing out that the allies weren't perfect either.

To be fair we did sorta have concentration camps going too.

 

[theprestige]

Again I repeat my earlier observation that had WWII happened in 2022 we'd have to put up with a lot of people who were suddenly in interested in Hitler's freedom of speech and pointing out that the allies weren't perfect either.

It would be a pretty bizarre war all around.

"The French and British are holding out at Dunkirk! The Reich is failing! We got this now!"

 

[JoeMorgue]

To be fair we did sorta have concentration camps going too.

Yeah but, and this is point people keep missing, is that nobody thought that the best time to loudly and "lookit me" bring that up was WHILE THE ALLIES WERE LIBERATING THE GERMAN CAMPS.

When people are doing good things, you can just let do good things, nobody needs hear from the "Nobody is perfect" squad.

This really is the one time when the Left becomes toxic and functionally identical to how the Right is all the time, when they take as their mission in life to bring everyone doing anything good for the sin of not being perfect and it creates this narrative where nobody is good enough to actually make anything better.

I'm sorry that so many people think that if they Quantum Leaped into a soldier on Omaha Beach on D-Day the best thing to do would be to turn to the man fighting beside you and go "You know, America isn't perfect."

 

[Ryokan]

ETA2: On the diplomatic and PR side of things, Ukraine is really getting hammered on the Indian student thing. Indian politicians are now claiming that Ukraine is holding the students hostage and the Russian attack on Kharkiv is starting to be presented as a rescue operation. India is pushing on this issue at the U.N. and Ukrainian diplomats are stuck dealing with this issue at the U.N. instead of dealing with the actual invasion of their country.

The Russians are attacking Kharkiv as a rescue operation, to rescue Indian students who are trapped because the Russians are attacking Kharkiv?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Still lots of drama about Indian students stuck in Ukraine. There seem to be hundreds thousands of them stuck in Kharkiv. The Indian government is claiming that the Ukrainians are refusing to let them leave, and that Russia is offering them safe passage.

This is the same Indian government that didn't initiate an evacuation earlier because it believed Mr. Putin when he claimed Russia would not invade.


ETA: An article on the subject:

A blow-by-blow account of an Indian student trying – and failing – to escape Kharkhiv in Ukraine

(my guess is that the trains are either full of women and children being evacuated, or might not be running at all because there's a hell of a war going on and transport isn't safe).

ETA2: On the diplomatic and PR side of things, Ukraine is really getting hammered on the Indian student thing. Indian politicians are now claiming that Ukraine is holding the students hostage and the Russian attack on Kharkiv is starting to be presented as a rescue operation. India is pushing on this issue at the U.N. and Ukrainian diplomats are stuck dealing with this issue at the U.N. instead of dealing with the actual invasion of their country.

The Indian government are just as fruit loops as the Russian one though. Modhi is basically a less intelligent version of Putin right down to the bizarre fixation with righting "wrongs" that never existed outside of the reality they apparently live in on planet sausage.

 

[Oystein]

Russia is now finally admitting to some war dead.


That's less than 1/4 of what western intelligence agencies are estimating, less than 1/10 of what Ukraine is (claiming to) estimate.

Even that much may come as a shock to the Russian public.

Oh - wow. Seems the Ukrainian numbers are realistic after all!