Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Rolfe]

Same old trans-activist dodge. Don't have to answer questions or defend positions if can think of some other topic that isn't being raised at the moment.

Oh, I can go on for quite some time about the evil trade in cutting off young girls' breasts and mutilating their arms and their legs to construct a roll of flesh that isn't anything like a penis and will never work, and spaying them, and giving them hormones that will destroy their beautiful voices and their beautiful hair. I thought I had made my position on that perfectly clear earlier in the thread but I'll do it all again if I have to.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Fallacy of the inappropriate comparison, or something like that. Texas does something that's very bad for women. So that's bad. So we have to condemn everything Texas does? Would we have to condemn Texas for legislating against murder because they also legislated against abortion? Should we support the right to murder or be murdered, because Texas wants to outlaw that, and it also wants to outlaw abortion?

Make your case without dragging hoplessly inapproproate comparisons into ir. Explain why you think it's good to castrate children (and cut their breasts off) when they're too young to be trusted to drive a car or to drink alcohol or to vote.

The problem is a political one. It's not a fallacy to note that the rising tide of extreme right, anti-secular politics that is leading to this assault on trans people's rights is also coinciding with an assault on abortion rights.

At least in the US, the Venn Diagram of transphobes and anti-abortion misogynists is practically a perfect circle. Transphobia is inextricably a plank in the reactionary right platform.

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't think it's all that "carried away" to compare what's being done to these children to Mengele.

I'll go with it as far as comparing them to lobotomizers, but Mengele is a bit too far.

There is an audio stream as well. This is the first time I have seen that picture of the erstwhile Will Thomas and his shoulder muscles. No wonder these girls are spooked.

Yeah, it's interesting the choice of photos that usually accompany articles about Thomas.

I wish I had lats like that. I don't say that about most women.

 

[Rolfe]

Was there a question I haven't answered?

The escalation of the situation in Texas has, if anything, provided far more clarity. Turns out that "should parents go to jail for taking their kids to get trans-affirming care from a doctor" turned out to be a pretty good litmus test.

There's a refreshing bit of transparency in this thread compared to many previous exchanges in my opinion.

Maybe "should parents go to jail for taking their kids to a doctor who will illegally castrate them?" is indeed a good litmus test, but it might not give the answer you want.

 

[Rolfe]

I'll go with it as far as comparing them to lobotomizers, but Mengele is a bit too far.

Well, OK, but I do feel strongly about what's being done to these poor, confused children, and I think Mengele is only a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Maybe "should parents go to jail for taking their kids to a doctor who will illegally castrate them?" is indeed a good litmus test, but it might not give the answer you want.

I agree, no matter how it's spun.

The situation in Texas is a great litmus test. You don't need a crystal ball to guess which elements of society will end up on one side or the other.

 

[Rolfe]

The problem is a political one. It's not a fallacy to note that the rising tide of extreme right, anti-secular politics that is leading to this assault on trans people's rights is also coinciding with an assault on abortion rights.

At least in the US, the Venn Diagram of transphobes and anti-abortion misogynists is practically a perfect circle. Transphobia is inextricably a plank in the reactionary right platform.

And yet on this side of the pond the political compass points in the other direction. It's the left-wing women who are organising against the trans juggernaut. It's almost as if the political left and right isn't the way to look at this at all.

 

[Ziggurat]

Was there a question I haven't answered?

So, so many questions you haven't answered.

The escalation of the situation in Texas has, if anything, provided far more clarity. Turns out that "should parents go to jail for taking their kids to get trans-affirming care from a doctor" turned out to be a pretty good litmus test.

There's a refreshing bit of transparency in this thread compared to many previous exchanges in my opinion.

You claim you want transparency, and yet you continue to use euphemisms which are designed precisely to obscure. Your demands are hypocritical and dishonest, and you are incapable of engaging in this debate on the merits of your position without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And yet on this side of the pond the political compass points in the other direction. It's the left-wing women who are organising against the trans juggernaut. It's almost as if the political left and right isn't the way to look at this at all.

The UK certainly seems to be an entirely different political environment. I make no prognostications about the Cursed Isles.

As far as I can tell, TERFs are largely a non-factor in the US, while in the UK seems like they at least command quite a bit of press attention.

Right wing feminism isn't really a thing here like it is in the UK.

 

[Rolfe]

I agree, no matter how it's spun.

The situation in Texas is a great litmus test. You don't need a crystal ball to guess which elements of society will end up on one side or the other.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean, but if there is a side that wants to prevent children being castrated before they're old enough to drink or drive or vote, I'm in favour.

I may of course be very much not in favour of other things that same side is doing. Hey, matters of conscience and ethics are nuanced, who would have thought it.

You seem to be in the position of being so unable to defend your core position on the mutilation and sterilisation of children that you have to resort to "but the people who are against this evil trade are also against abortion so you have to condemn everything they stand for, including their stance against mutilating children." It doesn't work like that. You need to defend child mutilation on its own merits.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

So, so many questions you haven't answered.



You claim you want transparency, and yet you continue to use euphemisms which are designed precisely to obscure. Your demands are hypocritical and dishonest, and you are incapable of engaging in this debate on the merits of your position without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

It's going to be hard to know the answers to my questions if you don't read my posts. I answered this question last page, maybe you missed it.

 

[Rolfe]

The UK certainly seems to be an entirely different political environment. I make no prognostications about the Cursed Isles.

As far as I can tell, TERFs are largely a non-factor in the US, while in the UK seems like they at least command quite a bit of press attention.

Right wing feminism isn't really a thing here like it is in the UK.

So how about we all leave politics out of it and defend or oppose child castration on its own terms. You are in favour of castrating children before they're old enough to vote, or drive, or drink alcohol. Defend that.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You seem to be in the position of being so unable to defend your core position on the mutilation and sterilisation of children that you have to resort to "but the people who are against this evil trade are also against abortion so you have to condemn everything they stand for, including their stance against mutilating children." It doesn't work like that. You need to defend child mutilation on its own merits.

No, I've simply acknowledged that we're well past the point of "persuasion". Hell, the Texas ghouls trying to lock up parents have acknowledged that too by charging ahead with this nonsense after their attempts at legislating it failed.

Like with the abortion issue, the reactionary right has realized they really don't need a majority of public opinion on their side to win issues. They are increasingly becoming comfortable with being a ruling minority and forcing their anti-secularism on the rest of the population.

It remains to be seen if there's an electoral or other political backlash for this increasingly brazen power grabs.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm going to skim over posts which are just a whine about American politics.

Your "trans-affirming care" is chemical and surgical castration of boys, mastectomy and androgenisation of girls. These effects are not reversible and they are ruining lives. Explain why it's OK to do these things to children too young to vote, or drive, or drink alcohol.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's going to be hard to know the answers to my questions if you don't read my posts. I answered this question last page, maybe you missed it.

My last post didn't contain a question. I asked two question a few posts back, what you mean by "affirming care" and why you use a deceptive euphemism. You answered what you mean, but you have not answered why you used a deceptive euphemism for it.

 

[Rolfe]

Because it's easy to say "you shouldn't be against care". It's not quite so easy to say "you shouldn't be against the castration of children" but I see he's working himself up to it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

My last post didn't contain a question. I asked two question a few posts back, what you mean by "affirming care" and why you use a deceptive euphemism. You answered what you mean, but you have not answered why you used a deceptive euphemism for it.

It's handy to have a catch-all term like "gender affirming care" for what is a variety of different treatments related to treating transgender patients.

 

[Meadmaker]

It's handy to have a catch-all term like "gender affirming care" for what is a variety of different treatments related to treating transgender patients.

Indeed. I often use the term "medical transition" for just that reason.

 

[Rolfe]

It's handy to have a catch-all term like "gender affirming care" for what is a variety of different treatments related to treating transgender patients.

If you're into euphemisms that allow you to conceal the enormity of what you're advocating, yes.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The NYTimes story that was still being written earlier has gone to press.

The broad strokes from the previous link are the same, but they add this context:

The moves by Mr. Abbott and Mr. Paxton, both two-term Republican incumbents, came days before a primary election in which each faces significant and noisy challenges from far-right opponents. Mr. Paxton, who has been indicted on securities fraud charges and accused of corruption by his own former top aides, has been seen as particularly vulnerable. Going into Tuesday’s primary, he appeared unlikely to receive more than 50 percent of the vote and was likely to end up in a May runoff.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/us/texas-child-abuse-trans-youth.html

Fending off challenges from the right by proving their bona fides at the expense of trans residents of the state.