The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

[angrysoba]

Not (exactly) a day or two, three days before:


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic)


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine)

The West imposed even more sanctions after Putin recognized the two republics (completely ineffective, but very useful to make people angry):

(https://www.voanews.com/a/us-europe...nizes-breakaway-ukraine-regions-/6453469.html)

Then Putin launched his big and tragically idiotic invasion of Ukraine after this new tranche of sanction (congratulations, West, your sanctions may have contributed to this invasion).

Anyone with a brain knew that Putin was preparing for invasion already. It's mindboggling if you seriously believe that Putin only did it in a petulant fit because his recognition of two republics (after many years of being in limbo) was not instantly followed by "The West"'s recognition of them as well.

 

[Ziggurat]

The guilt is shared because the West imposed heavy sanctions after the annexation of Crimea, and refused to recognize the two republics.

You seem to think it was OK for Russia to stir up separatists and use them to seize territory. That view isn't widely shared here, and so none of your conclusions based upon this will be either.

 

[Michel H]

How about I blow up your house because you looked at me funny? Then you can drop the lawsuit, because the guilt is shared.

I don't if this supposed to be Russian humor, but I don't find this very funny.

 

[shemp]

Just a good ol’ boy apparently embedded with Russian forces in Ukraine

https://twitter.com/borzou/status/1498393087952961541

 

[Michel H]

Anyone with a brain knew that Putin was preparing for invasion already. It's mindboggling if you seriously believe that Putin only did it in a petulant fit because his recognition of two republics (after many years of being in limbo) was not instantly followed by "The West"'s recognition of them as well.

This is neither what I think nor what I said.

What I said what the "new" tranche of sanctions decided after the recognitions may unfortunately have contributed to Putin's decision to invade.

 

[Meadmaker]

This is neither what I think nor what I said.

What I said what the "new" tranche of sanctions decided after the recognitions may unfortunately have contributed to Putin's decision to invade.

And what angrysoba is saying, along with a lot of other people, is that Putin's decision was obviously made before the "new" tranche of sanctions, so those sanctions had no effect on his decision.

The only way it could possibly have had an effect was that there was a slim chance that he might call it off in the face of international opposition, but that didn't work.

 

[Meadmaker]

https://twitter.com/borzou/status/1498393087952961541

Well, there are plenty of idiots in the world, who will believe anything.



So....if you ever see that there was a vote where 97% of the people agreed on something, it's a safe bet the vote was rigged. Idiots like the guy in that video get to vote, too.

 

[arthwollipot]

It seems to me there are some easy concessions Ukraine and its Western allies could easily make, and which would perhaps avoid further bloodshed and suffering:

(1) Accepting the independence of the two breakaway republics of Donbass (Donetsk and Lugansk). Russia could station troops there if deemed necessary for protection, upon invitation from their respective goverments.

(2) Accepting that Crimea is part of Russia.

(3) Accepting that Ukraine will not be a NATO member for at least 10 years.

(4) Lifting all economic sanctions imposed on Russia (even those which existed before this recent attack by Russia) provided that all Russian troops have left Ukraine (where they shouldn't be). With the understanding that a lifting of sanctions would also be good for Western economies and ordinary citizens.

You mean capitulate to all of Russia's demands?

 

[Roboramma]

Is Elon Musk being a hero or a douchebag with that claim that people in Ukraine can now use Starlink?

Looks like there is no way of doing it, but people are praising him anyway.

https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/1498392515262746630

If the Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine and Minister of Digital Transformation of Ukraine is thanking him for it, it seems to me that yes, there is a way of doing it, and yes we should be praising him for it too.

 

[Michel H]

And what angrysoba is saying, along with a lot of other people, is that Putin's decision was obviously made before the "new" tranche of sanctions, so those sanctions had no effect on his decision.

The only way it could possibly have had an effect was that there was a slim chance that he might call it off in the face of international opposition, but that didn't work.

This is your own personal interpretation of events, but you don't really know exactly what the effect of the new sanctions was. Even more sanctions might lead to a nuclear war which might burn down your house but, even then, being yourself half-burnt, and lacking half of your clothes, you might perhaps say that these sanctions were an excellent and unavoidable thing.

 

[Jimbo07]

Well, there are plenty of idiots in the world, who will believe anything.



So....if you ever see that there was a vote where 97% of the people agreed on something, it's a safe bet the vote was rigged. Idiots like the guy in that video get to vote, too.

Falklands, 2013. Voted 99.8% to be an Overseas Territory of the UK. The Crimean referendum is suspect, although there definitely were some Russian sympathies there.

I think you're right about Crimea, but not for the reason of no one voting that way.

 

[Meadmaker]

This is your own personal interpretation of events, but you don't really know exactly what the effect of the new sanctions was. Even more sanctions might lead to a nuclear war which might burn down your house but, even then, being yourself half-burnt, and lacking half of your clothes, you might perhaps say that these sanctions were an excellent and unavoidable thing.

Well, anything's possible.


See my last reply to Shemp.

 

[Olmstead]

This is your own personal interpretation of events, but you don't really know exactly what the effect of the new sanctions was. Even more sanctions might lead to a nuclear war which might burn down your house but, even then, being yourself half-burnt, and lacking half of your clothes, you might perhaps say that these sanctions were an excellent and unavoidable thing.

And you do know? Maybe without those sanctions, Russia would be invading Lithuania today.

 

[angrysoba]

https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/1498392515262746630

If the Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine and Minister of Digital Transformation of Ukraine is thanking him for it, it seems to me that yes, there is a way of doing it, and yes we should be praising him for it too.

Yes, I am happy to be wrong. Elon, if you are reading, I am sorry for calling you a douche bag. Although you still are a little bit for the “pedo guy” thing.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

You mean capitulate to all of Russia's demands?

They can make more demands until you think it's a fair compromise.

 

[Michel H]

You mean capitulate to all of Russia's demands?

Oh no, certainly not. Putin's invasion is bad. See post post #1684
(and #1681).

 

[Manopolus]

Then Putin launched his big and tragically idiotic invasion of Ukraine after this new tranche of sanction (congratulations, West, your sanctions may have contributed to this invasion).

If I reprimand someone for being a jackass and he randomly murders someone later that day because I put him in a bad mood, that does not make me responsible for the murder.

While it might be true that a better outcome may have been had (possibly in both cases, although I doubt it -- pretty sure Russia had this invasion planned weeks beforehand), my actions cannot be reasonably considered to be the cause of the murder. Even partial blame is unjustified.

The West is responsible for the actions of The West. The West is not responsible for the actions of Putin, regardless of whether it can be construed to be a reaction. Only Putin can decide what Putin does, and therefore he must take full responsibility for it. The West did not put a gun to his head and order him to invade Ukraine.

While this sort of consideration of cause/effect can be usefully considered to improve your own actions/outcomes (like, I don't know... a friendlier reprimand), it cannot be reasonably used to assign blame. It is useful for skill improvement only. Anything else violates the notion of free will (which, whether you ultimately believe in it abstractly or not, the notion of blame depends wholly on free will being present -- otherwise it's nothing more than blameless cause and effect).

 

[trustbutverify]

So I hadn't remembered the referendum aspect. I did a little reading, and it kind of confirmed what I suspected when I read that the "join Russia" vote was 97%.


Never in the history of the world has any free and democratic vote ever been won with a 97% majority. 5-10% of regular people will vote against the majority just to be contrarian.

Clearly. 2.5% will vote against the majority by accident.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is your own personal interpretation of events, but you don't really know exactly what the effect of the new sanctions was.

In a sense, you are correct that we cannot ever know with total certainty how someone will respond. But so what? That's true for any course of action. We have to decide our own actions based on what is reasonable and likely.

And you're basically arguing that it's our fault that Putin is a total nutjob who acts irrationally and unpredictably.

 

[Roboramma]

Yes, I am happy to be wrong. Elon, if you are reading, I am sorry for calling you a douche bag. Although you still are a little bit for the “pedo guy” thing.