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The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

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Beelzebuddy said:
"But but but, hypocrisy!" No one gives a crap about rhetoric. If any world leader believes that Russia really truly is protecting these nascent independent nations and that's why they're invading, they are a fool.
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Yeah, it isn't exactly a rational argument to say the completely fabricated lies used here means China would have to oppose the actions taken or even that they wouldn't follow suit.

The action is that a nation with nuclear weapon access can exert control to the point of invading another nation if that other nation lacks access to nuclear weapons. Or more broadly, Russian and China can take land they want from control of the locals and their nukes means the 'reasonable' people have to let them. (Or their nukes plus economic convenience.) This applies to Russia and Ukraine as well as China and the South China Sea, as well as Taiwan. The rationalization presented just has to be tuned for internal consumption. Hell, not even 'has to', just a bonus.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Later in the evening it became clear that a heavy battle for Hostomel was raging and Ukrainian forces were using both airstrikes and artillery.
By 11pm Kyiv time (21:00 GMT) an official statement was released, saying that the airfield was back in the Ukrainian hands.
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This is good, it seems to me.

I can understand the Russian exasperation after so many unjust "sanctions" imposed by the West on Russia, after for example the annexation of Russian-speaking Crimea, or the recognition of the two breakaway republics.

However, this exasperation should not translate into a massive military operation in an independant country which has not attacked Russia, an offensive which seems to be trying to take full control of Ukraine.

This is a violation of the U.N. charter.

A good way to end this serious crisis: Russian troops go home, all countries accept that Crimea is part of Russia, and that the Donetsk and Lugansk republics are independant, all sanctions against Russia are lifted, gas begin to flow in the Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

Then the world can concentrate on some other issues: pandemics, the climate and so on, and citizens see their energy bills become more affordable.
 
trustbutverify said:
I'm talking about public executions for sedition. That sort of thing.
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I was just following up with my last post in our discussion about the crowd of protestors in Moscow on the news.

Putin doesn't publicly execute people he's afraid of politically, he poisons them.
 
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Large ongoing anti-war demonstrations in Russia and St Petersburg tonight.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I was just following up with my last post in our discussion about the crowd of protestors in Moscow on the news.

Putin doesn't publicly execute people he's afraid of politically, he poisons them.
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If push comes to shove, I don't put it past him. And many of those poisonings were intended as object lessons for his adversaries.
 
trustbutverify said:
I'm talking about public executions for sedition. That sort of thing.
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There is no death penalty in Russia. As for suppressing opposition, remember Putin's still trying to look like the good guy, and their propaganda ministry does a fine job of drowning out opposing narratives at home and in some places abroad. There have been larger protests than this during his reign. There's nothing worth openly killing protesters over.
 
Venom said:
There is no death penalty in Russia. As for suppressing opposition, remember Putin's still trying to look like the good guy, and their propaganda ministry does a fine job of drowning out opposing narratives at home and in some places abroad. There have been larger protests than this during his reign. There's nothing worth openly killing protesters over.
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I certainly hope you're right.
 
trustbutverify said:
I'm talking about public executions for sedition. That sort of thing.
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Skeptic Ginger said:
I was just following up with my last post in our discussion about the crowd of protestors in Moscow on the news.

Putin doesn't publicly execute people he's afraid of politically, he poisons them.
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Let's not forget defenestration. Russian political dissidents seem to be strangely prone to falling out of windows.
 

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Venom said:
There is no death penalty in Russia. As for suppressing opposition, remember Putin's still trying to look like the good guy, and their propaganda ministry does a fine job of drowning out opposing narratives at home and in some places abroad. There have been larger protests than this during his reign. There's nothing worth openly killing protesters over.
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If it gets to the point where Putin concludes these demonstrations become potent enough to pose a significant threat, I think he'll do whatever he needs to do to neutralize the problem.
 
Michel H said:
.This is a violation of the U.N. charter.

A good way to end this serious crisis: Russian troops go home, all countries accept that Crimea is part of Russia, and that the Donetsk and Lugansk republics are independant, all sanctions against Russia are lifted, gas begin to flow in the Nord Stream 2 pipeline.
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Your solution is that Russia can violate the UN Charter and the punishment for it is to be rewarded. That seems rather counter intuitive to me.
 
Wildy said:
Your solution is that Russia can violate the UN Charter and the punishment for it is to be rewarded. That seems rather counter intuitive to me.
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I think that the West is guilty of having imposed too many sanctions on Russia (especially before this latest offensive on Ukraine), and has therefore an indirect responsability in the current situation.

And I did not even mention the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Television_of_Serbia_headquarters), and the invasions of Afghanistan (2001) and Iraq (2003).

Difficult to blame someone when you have done the same thing (or even worse) yourself.
 
Michel H said:
This is good, it seems to me.

I can understand the Russian exasperation after so many unjust "sanctions" imposed by the West on Russia, after for example the annexation of Russian-speaking Crimea, or the recognition of the two breakaway republics.

However, this exasperation should not translate into a massive military operation in an independant country which has not attacked Russia, an offensive which seems to be trying to take full control of Ukraine.

This is a violation of the U.N. charter.

A good way to end this serious crisis: Russian troops go home, all countries accept that Crimea is part of Russia, and that the Donetsk and Lugansk republics are independant, all sanctions against Russia are lifted, gas begin to flow in the Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

Then the world can concentrate on some other issues: pandemics, the climate and so on, and citizens see their energy bills become more affordable.
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No!

Why should Putin get what he wants from this psychopathic and unhinged attack on Ukraine?

I hope that Ukraine can indeed repel the Russians, and I think they need military support if only in terms of arms and money. But when this is over, Putin needs to pay and to that the West should turn up the sanctions until Vlad is swinging from a lamppost.
 
I am obviously wrong but doesn't the low casualty count so far give some hope of a diplomatic solution (Russian on top)? It's probably just a mindset issue on my part, but invasion on multiple fronts of a country would normally be causing a lot more battles/deaths/destruction, no?
 
According to an article in The Independent (behind a paywall), the following countries have voiced support for Russia's invasion:

Belarus
China (sort of)
North Korea
Syria
Venezuela
Houthis Rebels, Yemen

Beyond these, condemnation seems more or less universal at the governmental level.
 
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