Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Emily's Cat]

Here's a link for ST that contains the quote:
https://www.heraldtimesonline.com/story/news/local/2022/02/06/hb-1041-indiana-trans-rights-transgender-swimmer-sports/9319116002/

Now, there is some context here to be considered.

The woman's daughter transitioned at the age of 3, and has not and will not, apparently, go through male puberty. Regardless of my mixed feelings about transitioning that early, I think that is quite different than someone who has transitioned at a later age.

Unfortunately, I don't really see either side addressing the differences between a pre-pubescent vs. post-pubescent transition.

And that's a bit of a shame.

Yeah, definitely a shame. At 9 years old, there are some differences in overall height and size, but third grade isn't particularly "competitive" in school.

Prepubescent I don't care, let anyone play however they want, as long as everyone behaves.

Once puberty hits, it becomes a different story though. Even if this specific child is given testosterone suppressors and estrogen as soon as puberty triggers... they are still likely to be taller and stronger than females will be. Height is governed largely by the adrenal gland, not the pituitary. The adrenal causes the long bones to extend and to accrete density, as well as the closure of growth plates. It also causes the development of fine leg, armpit, and pubic hair. The pituitary causes the hormonal shifts that create sexual maturity, including the development of secondary sexual characteristics. That includes facial hair, body hair, and dense leg and arm hair in males, as well as thickening of the underarm and pubic hair in both sexes.

Cross sex hormones won't change how the adrenal operates. A male child will still grow to male height during puberty if given cross-sex hormones.

Additionally, neither the adrenal nor the pituitary will alter the physiological differences between from skeletal and internal organ differences. Males will still be able to take longer strides, they'll still have male attachment points for the tendons in their arms and legs which effects the mass that can be lifted even aside from muscle density. And they'll still have larger lung capacity, and abdominal organs not positioned around a uterus.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Indeed



True, true.

And....what educational and social value is being taught to the girl who doesn't make the volleyball team because a transgirl beats her out?

Seems to me that the educational lesson there is "You don't matter."

The lesson is "Fairness and equality for females are not important and should be sacrificed in order to affirm the emotions of some males"

 

[Emily's Cat]

I imagine it's a similar experience to not making the team because a cis-girl beat them out.

You imagine wrongly, I suspect. I mean, it's your imagination, so go ahead and imagine whatever the heck you want, I guess. But I think it would be nice if you were at least aware that you - a male - is busy dictating what you "imagine" a female would feel about being beaten out of a spot in a female team by a male.

This is like a 25 year old opining that they imagine that the 12 year old beaten out of a spot on the youth team would feel exactly the same losing that position to a 25 year old as they would feel about losing that spot to another 12 year old.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It doesn't make sense, though, to have special leagues for people at a natural disadvantage that is impossible to overcome. That states the situation too broadly: it's that some natural characteristic of a population should be exactly the disadvantage. For instance, short people have a natural disadvantage at basketball precisely because they are short, and the game favors height (in general). But the equivalent would be to assert that women have a natural disadvantage at sports because they are women, which is not true. The fact of a woman's femaleness - in and of itself - does not impact their performance in sports.

Actually, it does. The femaleness of a female is directly relevant to the general level of performance observed between males and females. Females absolutely do have a natural disadvantage at sports when compared to men.

Males are taller, stronger, have greater lung capacity, don't have a uterus in the way of their internal organs, have different attachment points for several muscles in their arms and legs that affect moment-arm, have different pelvic bones that affect gait and stride length.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Now would be another great time for LJ to present the settled science showing that gender dysphoria is a mental health issue and that transcending sex segregation in sports is a critical part of the treatment.

No no no, you've got that wrong. Gender dysphoria isn't a mental health issue! The DSM doesn't consider it a disorder at all! Transgender is a valid lived experience... which needs state sponsored pharmacological and surgical treatment in order to not-treat the not-issue, and of course, anything that was previously sex-segregated should now be self-declared gender-segregated so that those not-disorders are affirmed.

Because "science"

 

[Emily's Cat]

I can't speak for Damion, to say that was really his intent, but in my opinion, it's very relevant. It also goes to what theprestige is getting at. Is there a reason to believe that allowing transgirls to compete in the girls' division is actually beneficial to the transgirls' mental health?

I'd also add: Is there a reason to believe that the mental health of the transgender identified young males outweighs the mental health of the females?

 

[Emily's Cat]

These days, I just wish people would accept reality. If a girl chooses to wrestle against boys, sometimes there are going to be guys pawing at her snatch. That's reality. It will happen by accident, and it will happen on purpose. Of course, the boys will deny the "on purpose" part, but they'll be lying. If that doesn't bother the girl, and there are laws in place protecting the schools from liability if when it happens, go for it, girls....and transboys.

Let's have some compassion for the young males as well. I have no doubt that when wrestling against a young female, even if they aren't attracted to them sexually, some of those young males are going to have a physical (and likely embarrassing) reaction.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It follows then that all males are equally male? Is that correct?

Yes.

Caveat: We're discussing mammals here. Please don't bring clownfish or algae into the discussion, they are irrelevant.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I'd also add: Is there a reason to believe that the mental health of the transgender identified young males outweighs the mental health of the females?

Well, apparently sports isn't very important at all, so why do these girls care so much about losing their spots?

On the other hand, sports is very important, hence anyone should be allowed to play on whatever team they wish, or it will hurt their self-esteem.

The see-saw has gone back and forth in this argument about a hundred times. If someone makes an argument based on biology, suddenly it's mental health that's important. If somebody talks about the mental health of everyone else involved, suddenly we're more concerned about how the scientific community sees the matter. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[Paul2]

Actually, it does. The femaleness of a female is directly relevant to the general level of performance observed between males and females. Females absolutely do have a natural disadvantage at sports when compared to men.

Males are taller, stronger, have greater lung capacity, don't have a uterus in the way of their internal organs, have different attachment points for several muscles in their arms and legs that affect moment-arm, have different pelvic bones that affect gait and stride length.

I agree with you, you misunderstand the meaning of what I wrote, I meant something different, but it's not worth explaining, it's just a semantic issue.

 

[d4m10n]

There's very little reason to believe that selecting the competitive venue has much to do with it, but rather a desire not to be treated as the wrong gender.

Is there some reason to believe sports have been classed by gender rather than sex? Just because Dennis Rodman was gender non-conforming doesn't mean they needed to put him in another league.

Is there a reason to believe that allowing transgirls to compete in the girls' division is actually beneficial to the transgirls' mental health?

That is the salient question, but I'd phrase it in terms of sex rather than gender.

 

[Meadmaker]

Let's have some compassion for the young males as well. I have no doubt that when wrestling against a young female, even if they aren't attracted to them sexually, some of those young males are going to have a physical (and likely embarrassing) reaction.

That particular embarrassing reaction will usually be concealed by the protective equipment worn underneath the wrestling uniform.

However, a bigger problem, that has occurred in states where girls have been allowed to wrestle against boys, is that wrestling is a very violent, physical, activity where one wrestler attempts to dominate and subjugate another, overpowering them physically and pinning them to the ground. An awful lot of guys have been taught from an early age that that is something you never, ever, do to a girl.

So, some wrestlers have simply dropped out of competitions when paired against a female.

Is that bad? Is it ok? Is it the boys' problem? Are they sexist and they should respect their opponent rather than treating them like fragile flowers? I don't even know how to answer those questions anymore.

What I know is what will really happen. Many boys will feel very uncomfortable due to close contact with a girl. Others will feel very uncomfortable treating a woman that way, deliberately physically dominating her.

And other boys won't mind a bit. They might even like it. So, I guess that means it's ok.

ETA: One more thing. The boys don't always win, and some people feel sorry for them because they might be embarrassed losing to a girl. For that specific problem, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

 

[Meadmaker]

So, wrestling summary. My opinions.

Q: Should boys be allowed to compete against girls?
A: Oh, what the heck? Why not? You understand what will happen, right? Everyone ok with that? Who am I to judge? It would be better to have separate divisions, but if there is no girls' division....whatever.

Assuming seperate divisions:

Q: Should transboys be allowed to compete in the boys' division?
A: See answer 1. Why not? Everyone understands what will happen, right?

Q: Should transboys be allowed to compete in the girls' division?
A: Not if they are using performance enhancing drugs. (i.e. testosterone or variants. Sorry, Mack. It was unfair to let you compete.)

Q: Should transgirls be allowed to compete in the boys' division?
A: Yes.

Q: Should transgirls be allowed to compete in the girls' division?
A: Hell no.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Do you think the fact that the sport was wrestling may have had some influence on where Mack was allowed to compete?

Doubt it, I assume being in the state of Texas was the deciding factor.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Top notch work as usual from the transphobes:

Alabama House passes bill to restrict bathroom access for transgender students

...

Stadthagen, in explaining his purpose for the bill, read off a list of seven cases of girls being sexually assaulted in school restrooms going back to 2010.

Rep. Merika Coleman, D-Pleasant Grove, asked Stadthagen if any of those cases involved transgender girls assaulting other girls in bathrooms.

Stadthagen said he had no information that any of those cases involved transgender students.

https://www.al.com/news/2022/02/alabama-house-passes-bill-to-restrict-bathroom-access-for-transgender-students.html

 

[Emily's Cat]

I agree with you, you misunderstand the meaning of what I wrote, I meant something different, but it's not worth explaining, it's just a semantic issue.

No problem, it happens

 

[Emily's Cat]

That particular embarrassing reaction will usually be concealed by the protective equipment worn underneath the wrestling uniform.

However, a bigger problem, that has occurred in states where girls have been allowed to wrestle against boys, is that wrestling is a very violent, physical, activity where one wrestler attempts to dominate and subjugate another, overpowering them physically and pinning them to the ground. An awful lot of guys have been taught from an early age that that is something you never, ever, do to a girl.

So, some wrestlers have simply dropped out of competitions when paired against a female.

Is that bad? Is it ok? Is it the boys' problem? Are they sexist and they should respect their opponent rather than treating them like fragile flowers? I don't even know how to answer those questions anymore.

What I know is what will really happen. Many boys will feel very uncomfortable due to close contact with a girl. Others will feel very uncomfortable treating a woman that way, deliberately physically dominating her.

And other boys won't mind a bit. They might even like it. So, I guess that means it's ok.

ETA: One more thing. The boys don't always win, and some people feel sorry for them because they might be embarrassed losing to a girl. For that specific problem, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

There are a LOT of complicating factors when we start talking about close contact sports and interactions between males and females. Some are probably cultural baggage... but since a lot of that baggage seems to be pretty consistent across the globe, I think there's likely to be some element of evolutionary development as well.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Top notch work as usual from the transphobes:



https://www.al.com/news/2022/02/alabama-house-passes-bill-to-restrict-bathroom-access-for-transgender-students.html

As soon as you can provide a way to tell the difference between a transgender identified male and a standard issue male, there will be a lot less objection. As it stands, however, this remains a gaping loophole that would grant much increased access to predators.

And that's without even giving any consideration at all to the paraphiliac aspect of AGP that is a boundary violation of females in its own right. But I'm willing to let that slide for this discussion, if you could just provide a fool-proof way to tell whether or not any given male is genuinely transgender identified or not.

 

[Meadmaker]

There are a LOT of complicating factors when we start talking about close contact sports and interactions between males and females. Some are probably cultural baggage... but since a lot of that baggage seems to be pretty consistent across the globe, I think there's likely to be some element of evolutionary development as well.

Agreed.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Texas Governor directs state agencies to begin investigating adults who provide trans children with gender affirming care for potential child abuse charges.

In a letter Tuesday to the state’s Department of Family and Protective Services, Abbott cited an opinion issued Friday by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton (R) stating that certain gender-affirming treatments for transgender children — including gender reassignment surgery and puberty-blocking medications — “can legally constitute child abuse under several provisions” of state law.

Abbott wrote that the protective services agency “is responsible for protecting children from abuse,” adding in a tweet Tuesday that the agency will “refer for prosecution any such abuse.”

The Department of Family and Protective Services did not respond to a request for comment from The Washington Post late Tuesday on whether it would follow the directive. A spokesperson for the agency told the Dallas Morning News that it “will follow Texas law as explained [by Paxton’s opinion],” adding that it had no pending investigations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/23/greg-abbott-gender-affirming-care-child-abuse-directive/

Remains unclear how many local prosecutors will be willing to arrest parents for providing medical care for their trans children, though some have already publicly stated they will not.

Harris County Attorney Christian D. Menefee (D), out of the Houston metro area, in a statement accused Abbott and Paxton of “ignoring medical professionals and intentionally misrepresenting the law to the detriment of transgender children and their families.”

“As the lawyer who represents DFPS in civil child abuse cases in Harris County, I can tell you my office won’t be participating in this political game,” Menefee added in a tweet.

Both the district attorney’s office and the county attorney’s office in Travis County, where Austin is located, told the Morning News they would not adhere to the directive. Travis County Attorney Delia Garza (D) told the paper that “Republican leadership of this state is trying to turn loving and supportive parents into criminals, and this office will play no part in it.”