Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[GlennB]

AIUI the standard of glass on these roro sea ferries was that it had to withstand a windspeed of 41 m/s.

The Hamburg one was a river boat and likely had no great safety features.

Wind and water do not carry the same amount of k/e at any given velocity. Do you know the formula to calculate kinetic energy? I knew it well within the first 5 years of my school physics education, as should you. You might want to check the densities of water and air before you comment.

 

[Here_to_learn]

That is because when survivors asked to see their original statements to the police, taken whilst they were in hospital, they were denied it, and told they were classified.

So why did the Finnish police do that?

 

[LondonJohn]

Pure conjecture. So because he suddenly vanished it is all right to shrug your shoulders and say <fx scouse accent> 'the ******'s dead' after all?


So had he been 'disappeared' as an Estonian citizen, that would be all right with you?

He didn't "suddenly vanish". He was never there at all. He died in the disaster. You don't know what you're talking about. It's tiresome, and it's embarrassing.

 

[LondonJohn]

Wind and water do not carry the same amount of k/e at any given velocity. Do you know the formula to calculate kinetic energy? I knew it well within the first 5 years of my school physics education, as should you. You might want to check the densities of water and air before you comment.

LOL. As Basil Fawlty once said: "You might as well ask the cat".

 

[LondonJohn]

First, please cite a reference for that.

Second, now tell us how a windspeed of 41 m/s compares with a heavy sea hitting the windows instead. Do you even know how to start comparing the energy in air versus water, not to mention allow for the fact that one is a compressible gas and the other a much heavier uncompressible liquid?

Indeed. One only has to watch videos of the Boxing Day tsunami to see how a body of water, travelling at only modest velocity, can wreak extraordinary havoc and sweep people & property clean away. Just one cubic metre of water weighs a ton, and that amount of water moving towards an object at just 10m/s carries a huge KE of 50,000 joules.

Vixen, as so very often (indeed, as almost always), has no idea what she's talking about.

 

[LondonJohn]

That is because when survivors asked to see their original statements to the police, taken whilst they were in hospital, they were denied it, and told they were classified.


In the latest Kurm expedition Sept 2021, he planned to interview survivors who claimed to have been disregarded by the JAIC.

So what precisely is the source (the reliable, credible source, that is...) for your claim that the survivors' witness statements to the authorities were altered before their inclusion in the report?

(Please note that a comparison between a) what survivors said to unofficial investigators many years after the event and b) those survivors' 1994 testimony as reported by the JAIC, is not pertinent or relevant. I want to see documentary evidence that the original statements themselves were changed.)

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It would be Bildt who made the decision to announce it was a design fault on the bow visor.

In the movie in your head, sure. Outside of your personal version of the X Files, not so much.

 

[JesseCuster]

This was done in Thread One and cut as it was 'too long'.

Here is a short excerpt (it is much much longer):

Ok?

How do those excerpts from interviews with survivors prove that testimonies were altered by the JAIC to remove the word 'bang' and replace it with the phrase 'metallic thud'?

Specifics please.

 

[JesseCuster]

AIUI the standard of glass on these roro sea ferries was that it had to withstand a windspeed of 41 m/s.

It wasn't wind that broke the windows.

 

[JesseCuster]

He still worked there so he obviously retained his role.

So why did you say the following?

The guy who recognised him on TV in Rostock was Captain Moik. He was sacked for saying so in an interview.

And the following:

After such a frank interview captain Moik was dismissed from Estline.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

That is because the Prime Minister's post is a democratically elected one. The army generals are not.

You have rarely if ever named any generals, and only occasionally referred to them in the abstract, in connection with your conspiracy theory. It's always Carl Bildt this and Carl Bildt that. Nary a mention of Ingvar Carlsson, on whose watch most of the "cover up" would have needed to occur.

In fact, pretty much the only time you seem to remember that Swedish generals exist is when somebody points out how short Bildt was when the disaster occurred.

 

[Andy_Ross]

This was done in Thread One and cut as it was 'too long'.

Here is a short excerpt (it is much much longer):

What is the source for your quotes?

How do these quotes mean that other, different quotes were changed?

 

[Andy_Ross]

AIUI the standard of glass on these roro sea ferries was that it had to withstand a windspeed of 41 m/s.

The Hamburg one was a river boat and likely had no great safety features.

What does withstanding a wind speed have to do with being hit by waves?

Can you think of a difference between wind and wave?

41 m/s is around 90 mph. My house windows will withstand that wind speed but I don't think they would stand against being hit by a 6 meter wave.

A cubic meter of water weighs a ton.

 

[Andy_Ross]

He walked along the now-horizontal outer surface of the funnel, then used fixed railings and other fittings to climb up to the top of the ship (the port beam).

You seem to be implying that this was an impossible feat. It was not. Especially to a fit male.

Obviously passengers were able to do it but not engineers.

 

[Steve]

So why did you say the following?



And the following:

Channeling Graham Chapman (as first pepperpot) "I panicked!"

 

[Pooneil]

Note whilst at least 39 of the passenger survivors mention hearing 'bangs', the JAIC has rewritten it as 'metallic thuds' to avoid the idea of an explosion or explosions and instead to claim what the witness hears was the bow visor pounding on the forepeak deck. That is known as manipulation of facts.

"Bangs" are not explosions.

 

[Mojo]

The order to smuggle FSU state secrets came from a power higher than any government as who else had the authority to order the Swedish customs to wave through smuggled cargo unexamined?

The Illuminati?

 

[Vixen]

So why did the Finnish police do that?

Presumably because the police are an insular body unto themselves.

 

[Mojo]

So it's clear for all to see that what is quoted by you is from German Group of Experts, and not what they said to the police or JAIC. It's also not in the original language, but rather translated, another reason why this does not support your claim.

And it’s also clear that what Vixen quoted there is summaries of what the witnesses said, not quotations from the actual interview. Quite apart from anything else, they talk about the witnesses in the third person. There also seems to be a certain degree of flexibility in the translations. For example, the first one, as posted here by Vixen, says:

- I was at a karaoke bar with a friend when I heard an unusual sound. I thought it sounded like an explosion. I left immediately. It was a matter of seconds or minutes to get out. That ship collapsed so quickly and no one came to help.
Altti Hakanpää and his friend tried to shout at people. The sight still troubles him.

The same statement was translated here, apparently by Vixen, as saying:

'I was in the karaoke bar with my friend, when I heard an unusual sound. To me, it sounded like an explosion. I immediately lft. It was seconds or minutes in question that I got out. Then there was a rapid list (fall) of the ship and no-one there came to help'.

 

[Vixen]

Indeed. One only has to watch videos of the Boxing Day tsunami to see how a body of water, travelling at only modest velocity, can wreak extraordinary havoc and sweep people & property clean away. Just one cubic metre of water weighs a ton, and that amount of water moving towards an object at just 10m/s carries a huge KE of 50,000 joules.

Vixen, as so very often (indeed, as almost always), has no idea what she's talking about.

The Estonia had a draught of: Draught 5.60 m (18 ft 4 in).

A ship's draught is broadly

The vertical distance from the moulded base line amidships to the actual waterline.

- Air draught -The maximum distance from the water level to the highest point of the ship at the prevailing draught.

- Design draught -The draugth on which the fundamental design parameters of the ship are based.

- Extreme draught – The distance from the waterline to the underside of the keel.

- Moulded draught – The distance from the summer load line to the base line, measured at the midship section.

- Scantling draught – The maximum draught at which the strength requirements for the

scantlings of the ship are met.

Wärtsilä

Basically, the height of the hull.

Now according to the JAIC:

According to the final disaster report, the weather was rough, with a wind of 15 to 20 m/s (29 to 39 kn; 34 to 45 mph), force 7–8 on the Beaufort scale and a significant wave height of 4 to 6 m (13 to 20 ft)[JAIC 2]

wiki

So, it is readily apparent that the highest wave, would permeate (go over the deck) at 0.20m, or about 8 inches. By far the majority of water hitting a ships deck, simply washes off. The hypothetical 8 inches that may or may not have ingressed the top of the car ramp, presumed by the JAIC to be ajar at the top would only slow flood the car deck, which in turn had scuppers to release excess water, rather like a drain. In addition, as soon as the vessel turned to port away from the on coming southwesterly waves, if the car ramp was open, any water would simply wash away.