• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

Status
Not open for further replies.
Whereas, before that moment, its breaking loose and hanging from the top of the ramp while being repeatedly slammed by the waves is what began to bend and break the ramp and its locks.

As you certainly know already. I mean, you have at least read this thread if not the report. (Says the guy who couldn't remember if he'd read that the ramp was supposed to be watertight. Yeah, I do irony too sometimes.)

The vessel was listing heavily to one side, remember, plus it was steered towards port, presumably to correct the trim, so the waves would be hitting it from a completely different angle than were it upright and going forward.
 
Ridicule is not a logical fallacy.

It is. I am not referring to humour; we all enjoy a good joke and a hearty laugh.

However, kneejerk sneering instead of debating is a well-known logical fallacy. This can appear as flippancy, sarcasm and general refusal to take the debate seriously.

Rather like a bunch of teenage boys jeering and catcalling from the back at the movies (even if the film is dire).
 
Did he not? ;)

So, when Sillaste escaped via the funnel, he claims 0130, when the vessel was near 70°, he managed to climb up the deck floor, which was now a wall?


More likely he managed to climb up an adjacent wall, which was now the floor.
 
Piht was confirmed a survivor by Waterways Administration Head and spokesperson Stenmark and as reported by Reuters.

What happened to Piht, Marras?

Stenmark was mistaken as was reported in the news the next day.

Piht drowned in the accident.

Though, you would really like him to be murdered by Sweden and CIA with the help of JAIC.
 
Because:

  • a. the car deck is two metres above water level
  • b. the car deck is five mtres high, or fifteen feet.
  • c. Only waves of >17feet realistically would ingress.
  • d. the list to the back and the side means the bow was higher in the air.

Have you ever seen a rough sea? Plenty of videos have been posted in this thread of ships ploughing through waves which make your list ludicrous.
 
You may not have claimed expertise, but you have implied competence. And you don't have that, as evidenced by your hanging paper analogy.

I'm not afraid of numbers. However, I have done enough mathematical modeling (though in areas that are not related to physics) that I realize that I need to understand how a model works before I can get usable data out of it. Each model has the area where it can be applied and if you try to use it outside it, you'll get wrong answers. If you treat models as black boxes you get a garbage in - garbage out situation.

I have studied enough mathematics to know that I could study ship stability to be able to give useful comments about that if I wanted to do it. But I'm not interested enough to spend the effort. It's been over 20 years since I last solved a differential equation and I don't want to spend the time to relearn doing that, it took enough hours the first time.

So, I freely admit that I'm not competent enough on ship stability to comment on JAIC findings.



And if you just plug the numbers in the simplest formula while ignoring the effect of water coming in, you'll get garbage out.



It is easy to explain in pure layman terms, that has been done many times in this thread. However, people like you don't believe it. And when it's demonstrated that physics agrees with the layman terms, that's snobbery and browbeating.



Yup. They shouldn't have used mathematics and physics to show that the scenario that they propose in the report is possible. They should have concluded that Estonia sunk because Russian smugglers opened the bow gate and visor while KGB blew the visor off and a Russian submarine torpedoed the ship that just hit a WWII mine and a Swedish submarine at the same time.

No, it is not necessarily easy to 'explain in pure layman terms'. When I did my accountancy classes the large element of maths graduates - the traditional recruiting ground - had a horrible shock when they were told they couldn't just stick to the numbers. Sure many exams were very maths based, but the final big proficiency exam, actually a case study, required a 4,000-word report and writing skills. The maths content was less than half of the marks. So no matter how fancy your calculations, you got a big fat fail if you could not write a satisfactory report and one that was readable to a reasonably well-educated business layperson. Sure, there would be a huge data dump to plough through, in addition to the seen data in advance over a dozen or more pages, and the report could not be done without analysing it and carrying out complex calculations. The big dilemma and headache, was how to do all of this and write 4K words in three hours? So the beloved mathematics all had to be done in the twenty minutes reading time, scribbled on the exam paper, as the answer booklet had to remain shut until the twenty minutes were up. The beloved darlings of us (calculations, formulae, numbers) all having to be treated with great haste. The criteria used by the examiner was: Would anyone pay for this report? If the answer was yes, you passed. And this would be fewer than 50% of the candidates. IOW any report, whether for the courts or the public, has to pass the test of clear logical communication. This is because running a business is as much an art as it is a science. Likewise, barristers have to keep their legal skeletons extremely short and their legal arguments in simple plain language at the level of a bright twelve-year-old reading level, because you know what? The senior judges just want the bottom line and to speedread through it. An accident investigations board being answerable to the public (=public inquiry) likewise as to be in a comprehensive form.

Do I think the JAIC fulfills these criteria? Would I pay for the JAIC report? On the one hand, the descriptive narrative is good (for example, list of helicopters, ships and aircraft), together with the description of the vessel and its history. However, it has been mired in controversy from the minute it came out, so I would argue it fails to convince in its conclusions.

Many questions are left unanswered. Many things are left out (for example, the violent list to fifty degrees before uprighting prior to the sinking). It doesn 't explain how it knows the bow visor and car ramp fell off prior to the sinking (given two Estonian athletes affirmed they climbed down the car ramp as they escaped the ship) or how it knows the cause of the accident was a few strong waves.

It tries to blind the reader with hundreds of pages of fancy calculations re wave impact and bow visor specifications but without establishing these are relevant as to the cause.

The other big problem with the JAIC report is that you have to refer to lots of different places if you want to look something up. For example, the issue of the EPIRB's. You have to do a word search as it is covered in several different places. The report lacks continuity and cohesion.

It is all predicated on a fake premise so it is really a report masquerading as one. It is a facsimile simulacrum of an accident investigation report.
 
And somehow you can. But all we ever get is a bunch of handwaving speculation and conspiracy rhetoric. Your argument is that you don't know how the engineering works, but because you think you know "politics," all those inconvenient engineering facts can just be swept under the carpet. Faced with evidence you don't understand, you just reach for conjecture.



With respect to the JAIC report, you admit the numbers are too complicated for you. So instead of realizing that you are out of your depth, you cast aspersions on your betters.

You have to be able to see the big picture.
 
1. Swedish midnight is not a time zone.

2. How does an alarm clock signify a "new time zone"? :confused:

3. Once again, you've made a factual claim and neglected to offer any source, citation or reference, despite your claim that your factual claims are sourced, cited and properly referenced.

Tallinn, the departure point, was in East European Time, as local time is always used in international travel and on arrival at Stockholm it would be in the earlier time zone, one hour before (as you know this is because of the time of sunrise in any particular area).


Here are the citations as to the survivor witnesses who noted the time zone changed as of 0100 (EET) when they first became aware of a major incident.

Jasmina Waidinger - cabin 1027

- went to bed ca. 23.30 hours (Swedish time) and changed beds shortly afterwards with Daniel Svensson;
- both heard strange noises "as if the sea was striking against the vessel's bow";
- they discussed the situation when Daniel's alarm clock rang at midnight;
- she dozed for some minutes - she believes ca. 5 - when there was a "hard bang" from the car deck;
- at the same time the vessel heeled over to starboard and Daniel Svensson rushed out of the cabin while she dressed and followed;
- when she jumped out of her cabin door she saw water in the alleyway which trickled from somewhere;
- she estimates the time from hearing the "hard bang" to being washed overboard when the vessel was on the side at about 1/2 hour.
EFD enclosure

and

Marianne Ehn - cabin 6222 - 59 years old

was asleep in her cabin with her husband - woke up from lots of noises in the vessel - it was so terrible - she asked her husband for the time and he looked at his watch - it was 01.00 hours;
shortly afterwards the vessel was diving into a deep wave trough, there was a heavy bang - the vessel heeled severely and the engines stopped
EFD enclosure
 
I can't find any of it in the witness statements.
Closest there is says:

6.3 Summary of testimonies by surviving passengers and off-duty crew members
6.3.2 Reports from deck 1

That's another problem with the JAIC report, the JAIC-appointed psychologist, Bengt Shager, was taksed with simply summarising the witnesses' statements. IOW he put it into his own words. They are summarised and anonymised. Any that did not fit the JAIC narrative were excluded as being too confusing. Without citing the name of the supposed witnessed, how is anyone able to cross reference them for accuracy?
 
Any that did not fit the JAIC narrative were excluded as being too confusing. Without citing the name of the supposed witnessed, how is anyone able to cross reference them for accuracy?


Shouldn’t there be an “IMV” in there somewhere? Without you citing the source for it, how is anyone able to check your claim that witness statements “that did not fit the JAIC narrative were excluded” for accuracy?
 
Last edited:
Maybe it's a mixup connected to the alarm clock that fell to the floor when the ship started to heel.

https://digitaltmuseum.se/011024834113/klocka-vackarklocka

The battery fell out, and the clock stopped. The passenger put it in his pocket when he left the cabin.

https://estonia.story.aftonbladet.se/chapter/olyckan/

Mikael Oun is also the same guy who took the only known photos of the ongoing incident (he was a photographer). See attached, some young guy, who survived plunging in with his life vest.

Every major disaster has its heroes.
 

Attachments

  • 8bd62a849ae3f194a91634563189ba2e.jpg
    8bd62a849ae3f194a91634563189ba2e.jpg
    42.1 KB · Views: 10
No, it is not necessarily easy to 'explain in pure layman terms'. When I did my accountancy classes the large element of maths graduates - the traditional recruiting ground - had a horrible shock when they were told they couldn't just stick to the numbers. Sure many exams were very maths based, but the final big proficiency exam, actually a case study, required a 4,000-word report and writing skills. The maths content was less than half of the marks. So no matter how fancy your calculations, you got a big fat fail if you could not write a satisfactory report and one that was readable to a reasonably well-educated business layperson. Sure, there would be a huge data dump to plough through, in addition to the seen data in advance over a dozen or more pages, and the report could not be done without analysing it and carrying out complex calculations. The big dilemma and headache, was how to do all of this and write 4K words in three hours? So the beloved mathematics all had to be done in the twenty minutes reading time, scribbled on the exam paper, as the answer booklet had to remain shut until the twenty minutes were up. The beloved darlings of us (calculations, formulae, numbers) all having to be treated with great haste. The criteria used by the examiner was: Would anyone pay for this report? If the answer was yes, you passed. And this would be fewer than 50% of the candidates. IOW any report, whether for the courts or the public, has to pass the test of clear logical communication. This is because running a business is as much an art as it is a science. Likewise, barristers have to keep their legal skeletons extremely short and their legal arguments in simple plain language at the level of a bright twelve-year-old reading level, because you know what? The senior judges just want the bottom line and to speedread through it.
Cool story bro. :thumbsup:
 
Vixen, have you found any references for

1. Your claim about what is in Andersson's contract?

2. Your claim that the Atlantic lock was only added as an accessory to give the illusion of safety?

3. Your claim that Erich Moik was fired by Estline because he said he saw Piht on TV?

If the answer is no, then just say no.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom