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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
...people like London John never see the political or contemporaneous background of an 'accident' or a 'terrorist act' simply because that side is rarely in the transparent open public domain.
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And somehow you can. But all we ever get is a bunch of handwaving speculation and conspiracy rhetoric. Your argument is that you don't know how the engineering works, but because you think you know "politics," all those inconvenient engineering facts can just be swept under the carpet. Faced with evidence you don't understand, you just reach for conjecture.

The numbers are 'too complicated' for the layperson, is the lame excuse.
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With respect to the JAIC report, you admit the numbers are too complicated for you. So instead of realizing that you are out of your depth, you cast aspersions on your betters.
 
Vixen said:
Height is relative.
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You said Silaste is 160cm tall.

That's not a relative measurement, it's an absolute measurement.

Why did you mention his height, especially when you admitted that you don't even know what height he actually is?
 
Vixen said:
The JAIC version of rate of water and volume of same ingression is now considered to be incorrect, as commissioned via VINNOVA.
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You said that your posts which aren't qualified by 'IMV' are sourced, cited and properly referenced.

Yet you've provided no citation or reference here. Why?
 
Vixen said:
The mundane truth is that most shipping accidents happen becuase of some kind of explosion in the lower decks.
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Another factual claim with no source, citation or proper reference, despite your claim that all your comments with factual claims are sourced, cited and referenced.

Stop fibbing.
 
Vixen said:
The numbers required for calculating the Estonia's metacentric height and its righting leverage are very simple. Just follow the formulae!
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You can't even use a basic kinetic energy formula. I've seen you twice make bizarrely incorrect attempts to calculate kinetic energy (in this thread and in the Amanda Knox discussion). In both instances, the attempt you made was hilariously incoherent.

You're in no position to lecture others on how easy it is to use formulae to calculate anything to do with physics or engineering.
 

This thread is for discussing conspiracy theories about " The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V"

It is not for discussing conspiracy theories about 9/11

Nor is it for discussing the mental acuity of other posters.

Don't personalise the discussion, and don't derail
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob
 
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Vixen said:
The ship was 155 metres long. How can some guy somewhere on the ship, not even on the bridge with no view of the navigation panels and controls, possibly know the cause of the disaster?
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Are you saying that he would have been able to see the navigation panels and controls if has was taller?
 
Vixen said:
Another survivor said she knew it was 0100 because her cabinmate had set the alarm for 0100 to signify the new time zone of Swedish Midnight and she heard the alarm go off just as the list happened.
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1. Swedish midnight is not a time zone.

2. How does an alarm clock signify a "new time zone"? :confused:

3. Once again, you've made a factual claim and neglected to offer any source, citation or reference, despite your claim that your factual claims are sourced, cited and properly referenced.
 
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JesseCuster said:
1. Swedish midnight is not a time zone.

2. How does an alarm clock signify a "new time zone"? :confused:

3. Once again, you've made a factual claim and neglected to offer any source, citation or reference, despite your claim that your factual claims are sourced, cited and properly referenced.
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Seems like a needlessly inconvenient thing to do. Why not just either set your clocks back an hour before going to bed, or doing it after you wake up? Like normal people do for things like DST?
 
Reformed Offlian said:
Seems like a needlessly inconvenient thing to do. Why not just either set your clocks back an hour before going to bed, or doing it after you wake up? Like normal people do for things like DST?
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I can't find any of it in the witness statements.
Closest there is says:

6.3 Summary of testimonies by surviving passengers and off-duty crew members
6.3.2 Reports from deck 1

The other witness, in the same cabin, did not hear these blows but was also worried. After a while she heard a faint, new bubbling sound from above, like water being poured slowly. She stated that this happened a little after one o'clock: a wristwatch had beeped the hour and she had also looked at her own watch. She stayed in bed half asleep for about five minutes when there suddenly was a loud, scraping, howling, creaking and screeching sound from overhead, quite close, as if something large and heavy was sliding
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Captain_Swoop said:
I can't find any of it in the witness statements.
Closest there is says:

6.3 Summary of testimonies by surviving passengers and off-duty crew members
6.3.2 Reports from deck 1
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Maybe it's a mixup connected to the alarm clock that fell to the floor when the ship started to heel.

https://digitaltmuseum.se/011024834113/klocka-vackarklocka

The battery fell out, and the clock stopped. The passenger put it in his pocket when he left the cabin.

https://estonia.story.aftonbladet.se/chapter/olyckan/
 
Axxman300 said:
He got on the boat. He isn't among the survivors. He is listed as dead. Maybe he hit his head, maybe he choked on an ham sandwich. Point is: he never left the ship and is presumed drowned.

It is really that simple.
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Exactly. Just like the hundreds of passengers and crew who never made it to shore and whose bodies were never recovered.

Some (probably most) of those unaccounted-for people drowned when they went down with the ship, and their bodies are still trapped within the wreck on the sea bed. The remainder entered the water free from the ship, then either drowned or died of hypothermia, and their bodies were carried away by the sea.

In each and every case of an unaccounted-for person, obviously the most that could ever be said of them is that they were all presumed dead within around 8 hours of the sinking. As far as I know, they became legally dead very soon after the disaster as well. This is just how things work in sad instances such as this one.
 
Vixen said:
Why people try to pretend that 'oh, the Estonia accident is far too difficult for the ordinary person to understand' strikes me as pure intellectual snobbery, when it should be easy enough to explain it to the public in simple layman terms.


The need to publish hundreds of pages of calculations and bow visor sepcifications, together with wave impact diagrams, is simply a form of browbeating.
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I'm an ordinary person. I understand the explanation.

I also understand that an official report is required to show their work in order to understand how they reach the conclusions outlined in the report.

My knowledge base is marine geology. Way back in the first thread I posted links to the bathymetry of the Baltic Sea, and noted that combined with the recorded weather on the night of the accident that large and powerful waves would have been a factor. You confuse size with power. The region allows for a long fetch, and the rolling sea floor makes for areas of sudden rise., MS Estonia sailed right into a prime area for rough waves, and was sailing at a specific heading directly into them. And was sailing at flank speed.

It is unrealistic to rule out the weather and the waves generated that night. Any conspiracy theory has to get past this issue, and it cannot.

The ship was not designed for open ocean sailing and had only sailed in rough seas once a few years before. The captain ignored almost every safety rule in regards to sailing in hazardous seas, and he sank his ship.

That's it. That's all she wrote. End of story.
 
LondonJohn said:
Exactly. Just like the hundreds of passengers and crew who never made it to shore and whose bodies were never recovered.

Some (probably most) of those unaccounted-for people drowned when they went down with the ship, and their bodies are still trapped within the wreck on the sea bed. The remainder entered the water free from the ship, then either drowned or died of hypothermia, and their bodies were carried away by the sea.

In each and every case of an unaccounted-for person, obviously the most that could ever be said of them is that they were all presumed dead within around 8 hours of the sinking. As far as I know, they became legally dead very soon after the disaster as well. This is just how things work in sad instances such as this one.
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Yes, and I've looked at the wealth of photos of the ships interior. It was a show place. But when you take those pictures and turn them on their side it becomes clear that evacuating the Estonia in those conditions was largely impossible past a certain point. And later imagine those places under water with furniture and fixtures and bodies floating.

This was a disaster, but grasping why certain things happened, and why certain things were not done post sinking is painfully obvious. Unless someone is a ghoul.
 
JesseCuster said:
1. Swedish midnight is not a time zone.

2. How does an alarm clock signify a "new time zone"? :confused:

3. Once again, you've made a factual claim and neglected to offer any source, citation or reference, despite your claim that your factual claims are sourced, cited and properly referenced.
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I understand now what was meant, an alarm was set for 1am so that someone would be able to set their alarm clock back to midnight because they were going into Swedish time.

No reason to believe this story anyway, it's another claim by Vixen that is devoid of any reference for where it came from, despite her assurance that all her comments that don't have 'IMV' are sourced, cited and properly referenced.
 
See the problem isn't that "oh the details of the Estonia incident are too difficult for a layman", it's that analysing the data and calculations are too difficult for a layman. I certainly don't think I'm able to do so.

The general description of what happened wouldn't baffle anyone, but anyone who wants to dispute the science DOES need to be, if not an expert, at least competent in marine architecture.

Do you think that you, Vixen, are competent enough in the physics regarding buoyancy and marine architecture to be able to critically assess the science behind the general description?
 
JesseCuster said:
I understand now what was meant, an alarm was set for 1am so that someone would be able to set their alarm clock back to midnight because they were going into Swedish time.
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Yeah, but it would be a nutty thing to do anyway. I have this experience twice a year with +/- an hour in spring and autumn. I just reset the clocks before we go to bed, like normal people. Wake up in the early a.m. to change the clocks? Nope.
 
Axxman300 said:
I also understand that an official report is required to show their work in order to understand how they reach the conclusions outlined in the report.
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Yes, rigorously so. It can be in an appendix or exhibit, but engineering is very much a show-your-work profession, forensic engineering especially so because there may be novel techniques required to address some bit of evidence. The notion that you just plug numbers into a computer program and it spits out a fully reliable answer is about as far away from the truth as you can get.
 
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