Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[theprestige]

Ahhhh, the old "my views are representative of "most real people"" beast rears its ugly head once again.....

It's very easy to delude oneself that one's point of view a) is the "correct" one, and b) must be shared by most reasonable people. Isn't it?

Dunno about easy, but some people do indeed seem to make it work.

 

[cmikes]

Oh good lord.

There is none so blind as the one who will not see.

https://www.glsen.org/policy-maps'''


Check out the third section, "Enumerated Curricular Standards Legislation by State".

Yes, indeed, "both sides", really are trying to indoctrinate children, and are passing laws in state legislatures to force the issue onto local school boards who would prefer to do things a different way.



And then there are the folks who want to say that using "wrong" pronouns is a hate crime, but those aren't getting much traction in the US, because we take that "free speech" thing pretty seriously. Over in Loudoun County, Virginia, a teacher was booted for not going along, but he won his lawsuit and was reinstated.


I think most real people are on the "side" that doesn't want state boards of education messing with things like transgender issues for fifth graders, and would prefer that those issues be ignored most of the time, and dealt with by the local school if it can't be ignored, but there are people on the left and on the right that don't think that's good enough, so they pass laws.

I think that most conservatives would rather that schools not deal in political indoctrination at all but that horse has already left the barn. That horse has already left the barn, got out of the state, and is currently in the witness protection program. So if the question of political indoctrination has already been fought and lost, people are left fighting what kind of indoctrination is going to be taught, which is where we are. In that case, of course people are going to fight for their own preferred ideology.

 

[AmyStrange]

I've started reading a little of this thread, and I was surprised at how (and why) some men (and women) are against the whole idea of trans women.

Some of the reasons are because of inequality in economics and competition, especially with regards to sports.

Some of them actually make sense, but personally, I don't care what folks do as long as they're not hurting me or anyone else, and to be honest, I do have a kind of foot in this race, because my User ID gives some folks the idea (or assumption) that I'm a woman.

I'm not, and I do explain that in my "about me" message, but I've also been attacked in other forums, because of some of my views on things like abortion, equal pay, and sports equality, saying that I was pretending to be a woman, and that meant that my views and arguments were a sham and thus worthless.

The reason I use the name "AmyStrange" (as I've also explained in my "about me" message) is because she's a character in my novels (a talking cat that can sniff out missing persons and sometimes serial killers), and also because my avatar is a picture of my kitty (that I also named AmyStrange).

It's also the name of my website, AmyStrange.org.

 

[The Atheist]

Some of them actually make sense, but personally, I don't care what folks do as long as they're not hurting me or anyone else...

Then I can only presume you do care, because women are being hurt, physically and financially, by blokes in panties saying they're women. They are taking away earning and prize opportunities from women, and as lionking posted a while back, injuring the far smaller and weaker women they're competing against in contact sports.

 

[AmyStrange]

Some of them actually make sense, but personally, I don't care what folks do as long as they're not hurting me or anyone else

Then I can only presume you do care, because women are being hurt, physically and financially, by blokes in panties saying they're women. They are taking away earning and prize opportunities from women, and as lionking posted a while back, injuring the far smaller and weaker women they're competing against in contact sports.

I do care about it if it does hurt me or someone else, but not if it doesn't.

Now how exactly does my using "AmyStrange" as my user ID hurt you or anyone else?

That was the point of my post, and also that it isn't always a bad thing.

ETA: Of course, if you just want to make this a good or bad issue (with no gray area), then you're right and I'm wrong.

 

[AmyStrange]

Then I can only presume you do care, because women are being hurt, physically and financially, by blokes in panties saying they're women. They are taking away earning and prize opportunities from women, and as lionking posted a while back, injuring the far smaller and weaker women they're competing against in contact sports.

Wait a minute, are you saying that women (not trans gender women) who are bigger and stronger than other women shouldn't be allowed to play sports with the smaller and weaker ones?

That's the gray area I'm talking about, because isn't that what's already happening in women's basketball, and not to mention the male (macho) sport of football AND basketball (Some of those dudes are pretty small compared to the other players)?

ETA: I guess I need to read more of this thread.

BTW: This thread isn't only about sports:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13703906#post13703906

 

[The Atheist]

I do care about it if it does hurt me or someone else, but not if it doesn't.

Now how exactly does my using "AmyStrange" as my user ID hurt you or anyone else?

Did you read what I wrote? Your name has nothing to do with it. You said, and even quoted it. You care if it hurts someone else.

It clearly does.[/QUOTE]

BTW: This thread isn't only about sports:

Yet the very first post, some years ago now, specifically pointed at sport as a major cause of concern.

 

[AmyStrange]

Deleted

 

[AmyStrange]

Did you read what I wrote? Your name has nothing to do with it. You said, and even quoted it. You care if it hurts someone else.

It clearly does.

BTW: This thread isn't only about sports:

Yet the very first post, some years ago now, specifically pointed at sport as a major cause of concern.

That's true, but since then, it seems to have moved in different directions and not totally focused on just sports.

Pretending to be a woman can be a bad thing sometimes, and I'll agree with you on that, but it isn't ALWAYS a bad thing, and that was the point of my first post here.

I'm not trying to attack you. I'm just trying to understand all of it and not just the sports part, but I'd also like to know why you picked on my post specifically to reply to.

Help me out here, and please don't take my comments out of context and ignore the rest of my post and questions.

Please, I'm not your enemy here.

 

[Meadmaker]

I've started reading a little of this thread, and I was surprised at how (and why) some men (and women) are against the whole idea of trans women.

No one here is against the whole idea of trans women.

 

[Meadmaker]

Wait a minute, are you saying that women (not trans gender women) who are bigger and stronger than other women shouldn't be allowed to play sports with the smaller and weaker ones?

I don't know why people do this? "Are you saying something that you didn't say?" Respond to what is said, not what is not said, or what you think they probably would have said.


But.....lets' be fair on this, and answer a closely related question.

Should people who are very large be allowed to compete against people who are very small, in sports where a difference is size, strength, or momentum could result in injury to the small player?

The answer is that no, such competitions ought not be allowed. That's one of the reasons there are weight classes in boxing.

Now please don't do the stupid thing that people so often do, and respond with any variation of , "Meadmaker thinks....." followed by something that Meadmaker didn't say, and probably wouldn't agree with.



In actual practice, I'm fairly confident that people who organize rugby competitions have a way of dealing with the situation of a 5 foot, 100 pound fellow showing up and wanting to play. I'm confident they have some means of managing it, or any similar situation, in both men's and women's leagues. If there is an obvious safety hazard, they'll fix it somehow.

What happens in contact sports where transwomen are allowed, though, is that someone who is way outside of the norms, or even the extremes, of women's weight and momentum, and demands the right to play is allowed to, despite their masculine appearance, and masculine size, and masculine speed, and the fact that the doctor who performed the pre-participation physical assigned them male, based solely on the existence of functioning testicles dangling from their 220 pound, lean, frame.


Fortunately, I know that in some sports leagues at least, common sense has prevailed, and they have said no to transwomen competing where they could pose a danger.

 

[AmyStrange]

No one here is against the whole idea of trans women.

I'm always willing to keep an open mind.

 

[AmyStrange]

I don't know why people do this? "Are you saying something that you didn't say?" Respond to what is said, not what is not said, or what you think they probably would have said.


But.....lets' be fair on this, and answer a closely related question.

Should people who are very large be allowed to compete against people who are very small, in sports where a difference is size, strength, or momentum could result in injury to the small player? The answer is that no, such competitions ought not be allowed. That's one of the reasons there are weight classes in boxing.

Now please don't do the stupid thing that people so often do, and respond with any variation of , "Meadmaker thinks....." followed by something that Meadmaker didn't say, and probably wouldn't agree with.



In actual practice, I'm fairly confident that people who organize rugby competitions have a way of dealing with the situation of a 5 foot, 100 pound fellow showing up and wanting to play. I'm confident they have some means of managing it, or any similar situation, in both men's and women's leagues. If there is an obvious safety hazard, they'll fix it somehow.

What happens in contact sports where transwomen are allowed, though, is that someone who is way outside of the norms, or even the extremes, of women's weight and momentum, and demands the right to play despite their masculine appearance, and masculine size, and masculine speed, and the fact that the doctor who performed the pre-participation physical assigned them male, based solely on the existence of functioning testicles dangling from their 220 pound, lean, frame.

I agree with you.

BTW, I never said that's what anybody said. I merely was asking if that's what someone meant.

I'd rather ask, then assume the wrong thing.

Anyway, that's why I do it.

 

[Meadmaker]

I agree with you.

BTW, I never said that's what anybody said. I merely was asking if that's what someone meant.

I'd rather ask, then assume the wrong thing.

Anyway, that's why I do it.

Fair enough.

Maybe a knee jerked a bit too fast based on previous experience. Plenty of people seem to relish in misrepresentation of others' opinions.

 

[AmyStrange]

Fair enough.

Maybe a knee jerked a bit too fast based on previous experience. Plenty of people seem to relish in misrepresentation of others' opinions.

I can certainly understand that. I've been guilty of it myself in the past, but I am trying to change.

ETA: If someone explains to me how to do something, I always try to repeat back to them what I think they said or meant. It's how I learn to do it right, but thank you for understanding.

 

[d4m10n]

I've started reading a little of this thread, and I was surprised at how (and why) some men (and women) are against the whole idea of trans women.

I don't think you'll find anyone against the "whole idea" here. Most people have expressed a live-and-let-live approach, in nearly all everyday situations.

Welcome to the thread, by the way. Should we use pronouns which match your birth sex or username?

Here are some of the general questions we've talked about, boiled down:

What things do we need to sort by sex?
What things do we need to sort by gender?
What things do we not need to sort at all?

I'd be interested in hearing your take on at least the first one.

 

[AmyStrange]

I don't think you'll find anyone against the "whole idea" here. Most people have expressed a live-and-let-live approach, in nearly all everyday situations.

Welcome to the thread, by the way. Should we use pronouns which match your birth sex or username?

Here are some of the general questions we've talked about, boiled down:
I'd be interested in hearing your take on at least the first one.

What things do we need to sort by sex?What things do we need to sort by gender?
What things do we not need to sort at all?

Thank you for your warm welcome, and as far as the first question is concerned, I'm assuming that when you say sort, you mean separate from, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

With that in mind, I think that if there is a good chance that someone may get hurt because their sex or gender is different, then it's possible that separating them into different categories could be your best course of action.

Now as far as the first post in this thread is concerned (Part 8 specifically), I can see the possible danger in a male using a women's bathroom (even when they're not pretending to be a woman), but TBH, I have on occasion done this myself when I've had to pee really bad and the men's room was locked, or I had to clean the damn thing.

(BTW, I've found that sometimes the women's room can be much messier than the men's room usually is.)

Of course, knocking first is what I was taught to do.

The problem with these kinds of things are the gray areas you encounter IRL, like the example I just gave above.

I'm also a writer, and I want to introduce a transgender character in my novels, but I'm beginning to see some problems in easily referring to them. After a while, too many "she/he/it/they said" could get annoying to the reader.

What do you think (or anyone else for that matter)?

 

[d4m10n]

I'm assuming that when you say sort, you mean separate from, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think TomB probably had in mind situations where females are put in one space or league and males are put in another space or league, for the first question.

With that in mind, I think that if there is a good chance that someone may get hurt because their sex or gender is different, then it's possible that separating them into different categories could be your best course of action.

How would you approach the problem of incarceration?

 

[AmyStrange]

I think TomB probably had in mind situations where females are put in one space or league and males are put in another space or league, for the first question.

How would you approach the problem of incarceration?

Are you asking if transgender men (or women) be put in the same jail as their same biological counterpart?

(I hope that came out right)

That's a tough one, because for some men (and some women), being put in the same jail with the same biological sex is a scary proposition to begin with.

Being raped in jail (or sexually abused) by someone of the same biological sex (even for women) is a real thing.

Personally, I'd keep them all separate, but that also reminds me of a movie I once saw, "And Justice for All," but that's as far as I'll go with that, because I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[Meadmaker]

What do you think (or anyone else for that matter)?

Difficult call. A lot depends on the novel's setting, and why you want a transgender character.

If it is set before the first half of the 20th century, then presumably the trans character has adopted the role of the opposite sex, but fears discovery of his/her actual sex. The characters would refer to he/she as the adopted sex, but how would the narrator refer to her?

I, personally, detest "they" in most situations, although "their" is not quite as bad, just because it's a fairly common usage anyway. My English teacher in high school hammered home that proper grammar is to say, "Everyone has his book.", but he had to hammer it home because frequent usage was "Everyone has their book.".

Basically, the inclusion of a transgender character will end up creating a political statement, whether or not you want it to, so you might have to decide which political statement you want to make, and be aware that someone is not going to like it.


I never read the Rowling book with the transgender character. Does anyone know how she handled it?


Oh.....and....since you're new to the thread, make sure that you understand that when we say "transgender" around here, we are not specifically referring to someone who has had hormone replacement therapy and/or surgical alteration. Unless we specifically mean to refer to those, "transgender" also includes people who simply declare that their gender is different than their biological sex. I know that an awful lot of people in the world don't realize that's the common usage these days, at least among the supporters of trans-inclusive policies. Around here, if we intend to refer to people who are undergoing or have undergone some aspect of medical transition, we'll generally make that explicit.