Death Penalty

[Duncanthrax]

I hold the position that the death penalty is only justified when certain dangerous people cannot be incarcerated without a reasonable possibility of them escaping. Sort of the El Chapo situation where he had enough support on the outside, and the government employees are so corrupt, that he just had his henchmen dig a tunnel to escape. But like in the El Chapo situation, I think that simply means that they should be incarcerated in another country.

I did think of one situation for which I would support the death penalty. If there is a justified guerilla war, like the resistance to the Nazis, then it is a situation when they do not have ability to effectively incarcerate someone dangerous and imprisonment outside the country is not a reasonable possibility. So if the person committed a serious crime, even short of murder, I can see that the death penalty may be the least bad option.

I'd even tend to favor that if the established government is in danger of being overthrown, provided there is a substantial possibility of the dangerous prisoner being released by the guerilla army, again provided that another country will not take the prisoner.

 

[Crossbow]

Considering how many people have been literally exonerated from the death penalty due to advances in DNA matching, then it is quite obvious that the death penalty is a form of legal recourse that should be immediately rescinded.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Todd Willingham case

There have been several executions for which new evidence sows considerable doubt about the guilt of the executed person. Cameron Todd Willingham is the most well known such case but there are others. These cases are enough to convince me that the death penalty should be abolished.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Begs the question of why myself or anybody else should get to decide when someone else shouldn't be allowed to live. Why don't you explain that first.

I do get to decide if someone needs killing, but not it someone else if gets to flip the switch..

(I do not condone capital punishment}

 

[Thor 2]

I submit the following reasons for my opposition to the death penalty:

1. I think we should always promote the ideology that life is sacred. The state killing does not do that.

2. If someone is executed somebody has to do it. I wonder about the physiological effect this has the one doing the killing, and what kind of person would be drawn to this occupation.

3. The idea that this ultimate punishment will act as an effective deterrent seems to be in question. Some posts above bear this out.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

1. ( Human ) Life is only sacred because we have the ability to think it is.

2. Apparently there is no shortage of people willing to kill someone. Their psychological
health would be the least of my concerns.

3.This assumes death is the ultimate punishment.

 

[Thor 2]

One argument favouring the death penalty is that it gives "closure" to the families of the victims of the villein. Some of these folk are, or have been, granted ringside seats at an execution.

I don't know how you measure the effectiveness of closure therapy, but if anyone knows of any research on this it would be interesting.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I do get to decide if someone needs killing, but not it someone else if gets to flip the switch..

(I do not condone capital punishment}

Of course. The point of my post was that Warp had completely reversed the burden of proof, asking others to provide proof someone should be allowed to live. I thought that was a weird starting point.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing a lot of people shuffle off this plane of existence, but I never thought I have the right to decide.

As far as the usual "why do we get to decide to incarcerate people, then?"- public safety has always been an accepted reason to curtail rights at times. You're going to have to go a long way to convince me that the proponents of the death penalty have that as their main priority. It's usually an afterthought, to justify what they already want to do.

Incarceration is an unfortunate necessity, and I have lots of problems with how it's often carried out. But you can't correct the sentence of a dead person.

 

[Warp12]

I would ask, why would someone suggest that say, a self-confessed mass-murderer, should be kept alive?

Begs the question of why myself or anybody else should get to decide when someone else shouldn't be allowed to live. Why don't you explain that first.

Of course. The point of my post was that Warp had completely reversed the burden of proof, asking others to provide proof someone should be allowed to live. I thought that was a weird starting point.

I think it is an ideal starting point. There are clearly those who believe that no matter how egregious the crime, no matter how certain the guilt, execution will never be acceptable.

If someone is that immersed in their beliefs, I see no reason for debate. If they insist, then they should outline why a self-confessed mass murderer should not be executed...instead of relying on arguments that hinge upon a potential innocent being put to death.

 

[Thor 2]

1. ( Human ) Life is only sacred because we have the ability to think it is.

2. Apparently there is no shortage of people willing to kill someone. Their psychological
health would be the least of my concerns.

3.This assumes death is the ultimate punishment.

An odd set of replies.

1. My head is spinning.

2. So you're not concerned about the State fulfilling an executioners desire to kill, or perhaps making said executioner comfortable about being a killer?

3. So what's more ultimate?

 

[Venom]

I hold the position that the death penalty is only justified when certain dangerous people cannot be incarcerated without a reasonable possibility of them escaping. Sort of the El Chapo situation where he had enough support on the outside, and the government employees are so corrupt, that he just had his henchmen dig a tunnel to escape. But like in the El Chapo situation, I think that simply means that they should be incarcerated in another country.

I sort of transitioned to this position from being pro-death penalty for guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Not about severity of the crime but as a practical measure, the last arrow in the quiver to stop an inmate who has killed and will almost certainly kill again unless he's stopped.

I've been moving away from even that, towards abolition. Sometimes I question this when I hear about stunningly gratuitous cruelty where the perpetrators are inflicting unspeakable harm for the fun of it (which could describe some death advocates). But I think the punishment sets a bad example overall. The concept of purging the society of undesirables is probably a very ancient one. But it's a very steep slippery slope and history reminds us how far some people will go for "justice". I want to see that idea suppressed to the furthest extent possible.

 

[angrysoba]

Japan still has the death penalty (so to the United States, the Michael Jackson song, "Yoooou are not alone!"), and it is pretty popular here.

Even in my job as a university teacher, when I get students to discuss controversial or hot topics, the death penalty is almost universally considered a good thing (maybe 90%), which would certainly be unusual among university students in the UK or the US, I would expect (interestingly, students are pretty much 99% in favour of changing the law to allow same-sex marriage).

Generally, Japan does not impose the death penalty except in cases of multiple murders or aggravated murder.

However, there have been a number of murders where it seems the perpetrator deliberately sought the death penalty.

Police say one man suffered critical injuries and 16 other people were hurt in a knife attack on a Tokyo train on Halloween night. Here are some of the key facts about the incident, plus witness accounts.

The attack took place Sunday just before 8 p.m. on a Keio Line train bound for Shinjuku. It was approaching Kokuryo Station in Chofu City – a commuter town in western Tokyo. The suspect took out a knife from his bag and stabbed the 72-year-old passenger sitting next to him. He then made his way through other carriages and used cigarette lighter oil to start a fire.

....

...Hattori reportedly told investigators that he thought his wish to receive the death penalty would be fulfilled if he killed two people or more. He said he chose the night of Halloween for the attack because there would be many passengers.

Link

A man charged with killing a woman and injuring a man at his former workplace in this west Japan city shouted that he would rather have the death penalty after a trial by lay judges sentenced him to 27 years in prison on Feb. 3.

Shinichi Kakei, 47, a former part-time employee at Yamato Transport Co., was sentenced by the Kobe District Court for killing and injuring his former co-workers at the company's distribution station in Kobe's Kita Ward in 2020. Prosecutors had sought a 28-year prison sentence. Presiding Judge Takushi Noguchi stated in the ruling that it was "a remorseless and brutal crime with strong intention to kill."

Noguchi admonished Kakei after the ruling, saying, "I hope you accept your guilt." Kakei then shouted, "The death penalty would have been better. I will gladly die."

Link

 

[Skeptical Greg]

An odd set of replies.

1. My head is spinning.

2. So you're not concerned about the State fulfilling an executioners desire to kill, or perhaps making said executioner comfortable about being a killer?

3. So what's more ultimate?

1.Why is life sacred? This sounds religious to me. I have no place for religion.

2. I'm concerned about the practice. I do not condone capital punishment.
No one is forced to be an executioner. Let the persons who choose to do it deal with it. I am not concerned about them on a caring level.

3. It would depend on the person being punished. Death is usually an easy way out.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

false confessions and possible or actual wrongful convictions

If someone is that immersed in their beliefs, I see no reason for debate. If they insist, then they should outline why a self-confessed mass murderer should not be executed...instead of relying on arguments that hinge upon a potential innocent being put to death.

For one thing, some people falsely confess. For another besides Mr. Willingham, Larry Swearingen, James Earhart, and Carlos DeLuna were also executed, and substantial doubts about these cases also exist. There are a number of other individuals who came within days of being executed but who are now recognized as being innocent, Randall Dale Adams being an obvious example. The notion that no innocent person has ever been executed in this country is difficult to defend.

 

[Norman Alexander]

You only mention punishment and deterrent as reasons for having the death penalty. Are those really the only reasons you can think of?

Medieval revenge fantasies, based on religious indoctrination.

Anything else?

 

[Warp12]

For one thing, some people falsely confess. For another besides Mr. Willingham, Larry Swearingen, James Earhart, and Carlos DeLuna were also executed, and substantial doubts about these cases also exist. There are a number of other individuals who came within days of being executed but who are now recognized as being innocent, Randall Dale Adams being an obvious example. The notion that no innocent person has ever been executed in this country is difficult to defend.

Nobody is saying that no innocent has never been put to death. How about the John Wayne Gacy example? Stop reaching back to the potential innocents.

Lord, even when you spell it out very clearly, people harp back to their arguments. We are talking about the people with zero chance that they aren't guilty, already.

As I say, to some it doesn't matter. They would lament the execution of any mass-murderer, no matter how large the scale.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

false accusations and the death penalty

Another reason to do away with the death penalty is that the threat of its imposition sometimes makes people change their testimony against others or to confess falsely. This issue has come up in the Trials and Errors subform, but I don't have examples* of changing testimony at my fingertips (possibly it played a role the Hank Skinner case). This link alludes to the problem.
EDT
*see the Jerry Bigelow case at this link.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Steven Truscott

Nobody is saying that no innocent has never been put to death. How about the John Wayne Gacy example? Stop reaching back to the potential innocents.

Lord, even when you spell it out very clearly, people harp back to their arguments. We are talking about the people with zero chance that they aren't guilty, already.

As I say, to some it doesn't matter. They would lament the execution of any mass-murderer, no matter how large the scale.

Your example has no practical significance. There is no way to restrict the the death penalty to only those about which there is 100% certainty of guilt. For every John Wayne Gacy there is a Steven Truscott. My point is not that Steven Truscott is innocent; it is that a fourteen year old youth was sentenced to death at all.

 

[Warp12]

Your example has no practical significance. There is no way to restrict the the death penalty to only those about which there is 100% certainty of guilt. For every John Wayne Gacy there is a Steven Truscott. My point is not that Steven Truscott is innocent; it is that a fourteen year old youth was sentenced to death at all.

It seems like you are still squirming around the question. Is the execution of Gacy an acceptable outcome, for you? Simple yes or no.

 

[Venom]

It seems like you are still squirming around the question. Is the execution of Gacy an acceptable outcome, for you? Simple yes or no.

I don't think your point is as profound as you think it is. There are people who are against the death penalty for different reasons, the majority view so far seems to be concerns over its practicality and often subjective application.

Since the question is probably better directed at someone like me, NO it's not an acceptable outcome from me as far as how things should run. I don't think anyone is going to shed a tear for Gacy apart from his family, but that isn't the point.