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Whoopi Goldberg suspended from “The View”…

She specifically described it as white on white violence. She wasn't talking about man's inhumanity to man. She was talking about white on white violence and how it is qualitatively less bad than white on black violence.

I have to disagree with that interpretation. She specifically said it was about "man's inhumanity to man", and I don't get the impression she was saying it was better or worse.

"Personally, I'm shocked because given the story of 'Maus,' I'm surprised that that's what made you uncomfortable — the fact that there was some nudity. It's about the Holocaust — the killing of 6 million people."

As the hosts continued to discuss the banning of certain books, critical race theory and other hot-button education issues, Goldberg circled back to the Holocaust.

"If you're going to do this, then let's be truthful about it, because the Holocaust isn't about race," she said.

The other hosts paused before appearing to start to counter her argument when Goldberg continued.

"It's not about race. It's about man's inhumanity to man. That's what it's about," she said.

When co-host Ana Navarro said the genocide was "about white supremacy ... and going after Jews and gypsies and Roma," Goldberg responded that it was "two white groups of people."

"The minute you turn it into race, it goes down this alley. Let's talk about it for what it is — it's how people treat each other. It's a problem. It doesn't matter if you're Black or white because Black, white, Jews — everybody."

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Sorry if this is already posted.

Goldberg's explanation on the Colbert Show made perfect sense. The only quibble I would have is that 'black' is no more a race than Jew is. Genetically they are both ethnic groups, not racial groups.

Goldberg explained that to her, race was something you could see. If you didn't know someone was Jewish, you couldn't tell them from other 'white' people. Using that definition she has a point.

And according to her (because I haven't seen The View clip) it didn't in any way lessen the Jewish experience at the hands of the Nazis.

The Colbert segment
 
I have to disagree with that interpretation. She specifically said it was about "man's inhumanity to man", and I don't get the impression she was saying it was better or worse.



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Thank for providing some context.

"Whoopi Goldberg said it wasn't about race. What an idiot! Of course it was about race. I mean, the Nazis themselves said it was about race!"

"But they did the same thing to gays and the disabled, which they didn't say was about race???"

"Irrelevant. You see, when the Nazis say it's about race it is, and when they don't it isn't. The Nazis were experts on race!"​

But she was right, it wasn't about race - that was just an excuse. What was the real beef the Nazis had with Jews? The perception that Jews were in control of the banking system, and therefore to blame for the average German's financial and social woes. This wasn't about race, it was about wealth and power. The primary reason for the holocaust wasn't to eliminate a race, it was to strip people of their assets to enrich yourself. And they did. But they didn't stop there. Poles, French, Russians - anyone they thought they could plunder was a target, regardless of 'race'.

So in reality what it was really about was simply "man's inhumanity to man". Someone has something you want, and you will kill to get it - no matter who or what they are. But to justify your actions you have to have some excuse.

Gypies, gays and the disabled were different of course. This wasn't exactly about race, but something closely aligned to it - eugenics. Unlike the fig leaf of racism, this was a real belief based on a truly 'scientific' idea - the idea that culling the 'weaker' members of society would make it stronger. And where did the Nazis get that idea from? Why the US of course! Because Americans are the true experts on race!
 
Skeptoid:

At its core, Nazism was a far-right ideology, and every culture on every continent has its own far-right element — always has, always will. These are characterized by ideas such as ultranationalism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, and nativism. Although we typically associate these ideas with the Nazis, they are what defines all far-right groups; and so we should expect to see similar underlying belief systems. One of these is belief in a god-given right to rule. This was present in the early days of the rise of populism in pre-Nazi Germany. It was in the form of what we now call Ariosophy, which literally means "Aryan wisdom". The two most central figures in the rise of this ideology were the Austrians Guido von List (1848-1919), an occult writer, and Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels (1874-1954), a former monk and prominent anti-Semitic writer. Various Ariosophical ideologies spread throughout Austria and Germany in the late 1800s and early 1900s — a period called the Modern German Occult Revival, spawning groups such as the Thule Society, which began in Munich at the end of World War I. The Thule Society's brief life was an influential one. The Nazi swastika was adapted from the Thule Society's emblem. They published a newspaper which later became the main newspaper for the Nazi party. Most importantly, they founded the political party which later was reorganized by Hitler into the Nazi Party. Two men who later became Nazi leaders, Hans Frank and Rudolf Hess, had been members of the Thule Society.

Given these connections, many authors seized upon the Thule Society and framed it as a principle bridge that connected the Nazis to the occult. Many authors have falsely named nearly every Nazi official as having been a member, even Hitler himself. In fact, the Thule Society was quite weird. It drew its name from a nonexistent landmass in the far north which they believed was the ancestral home of the Aryan race. Members were required to swear they had no Jewish or "colored" lineage. Functionally, the Society was concerned mainly with racial purity and white nationalism...

Source

Nazi racism was based in the idea that the Aryan race was inherently superior to all others and had a divine mandate to rule over them. Of these inferior races, the Jewish people were seen as a particular threat for various reasons that you'd probably need to read Mein Kampf to fully appreciate.

So it's not true that the Holocaust was not about race. Racial purity was hard-coded into the core tenets of National Socialism. However, it is also true that from an African-American perspective, the racial divide is hard-coded as being between white skin and black skin. So it could be said that Whoopi was right... from a certain point of view.
 
Source

Nazi racism was based in the idea that the Aryan race was inherently superior to all others and had a divine mandate to rule over them.
And after they had gotten rid of all the other 'races'? Then they would assert their 'divine right' to rule over you!

The truth is it's almost never about race. It's about the individual thinking they should be entitled to more and blaming others for not getting it. Take a look at the average Nazi today. Do they act like they are inherently superior with a divine mandate from God? Or are they just losers who blame a rich cabal of 'Jews' (and others) for their never getting anywhere in life? They are the opposite of what they pretend to be - and they know it.

So it's not true that the Holocaust was not about race.
Yeah, they said it was about race so it must have been about race. :rolleyes:

Hitler tried very hard to prove that he was superior to the Jews - and failed miserably. I bet he knew it too, when he blew his brains out rather than suffer at the hands of his enemies. All he did was prove what the Nazis knew deep down all along - that they were inferior. His only achievement was to bring out the worst inhumanity the world had ever seen.

Real racists don't air their grievances about other 'races' that they hope to one day rule over. Real racists know they are superior, and are already ruling over others. Their only fear is that their position might not last. Hitler wasn't a real racist. He was a loser looking for someone (anyone) to blame for his own failings.
 
The truth is it's almost never about race. It's about the individual thinking they should be entitled to more and blaming others for not getting it. Take a look at the average Nazi today. Do they act like they are inherently superior with a divine mandate from God? Or are they just losers who blame a rich cabal of 'Jews' (and others) for their never getting anywhere in life? They are the opposite of what they pretend to be - and they know it.
Which totally explains things like apartheid, redlining, private communities, anti-interracial marriage laws, or say attempts by certain prominent politicians to remove African-American residents from their property holdings, does it? Actions taken by a nation's elite - the people who have it all? No. Racism is as much about fear of the unknown, intolerance, resistance to change as it is about greed or inferiority complexes. And it is practiced every bit as much by a society's winners as it is by their rejects.

Regrettably, fear of the Other may very well have a genetic component (or influencer) itself. Considering that prevailing theories of pre-civilization human development suggest that humankind evolved in small, tribe-like groups. Much like other apes.
 
I think the fact that the Nazis also targeted handicapped people and Communists and this and that is not an argument against their racism. You can hate more than one thing at a time. They murdered handicapped people for one reason, and Communists for another, and gay people for another, and so on, and Jews and Romany for another reason, and that was a belief that they were inferior and dangerous races, even if they ticked none of the other boxes.
 
Regrettably, fear of the Other may very well have a genetic component (or influencer) itself. Considering that prevailing theories of pre-civilization human development suggest that humankind evolved in small, tribe-like groups. Much like other apes.
It for sure has, it’s a major part of being a social animal.
 
What does any of this have to do with anything?

Again we're getting awfully close to the borders of the Right Troll's favorite "Racism can't exist because I don't see race" argument.
 
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But she was right, it wasn't about race - that was just an excuse.

You can rationalize any racism as being about something else, so that there is no such thing as real racism, it’s always an excuse. But that is fundamentally wrong, both in general and in this specific case. The error you seem to be making is concluding that there is one true motive. And that is almost never true in human behavior. Complex human behavior almost always has multiple motives even at the individual level, and it’s guaranteed at the societal level. Racism was absolutely at play in Nazi Germany.
 
What does any of this have to do with anything?

Is this a topic people aren't allowed to discuss? Whoopi wasn't, apparently we cannot as well?

Again we're getting awfully close to the borders of the Right Troll's favorite "Racism can't exist because I don't see race" argument.

I'd say we're getting awfully close to the borders of "some subjects aren't allowed to be talked about".

My "senior capstone" seminar class in college was literally titled "Man's Inhumanity To Man" and the subject was: the Holocaust. We talked about it for a whole semester. It was considered a good thing to study and think about it then. And even discuss!
 
"Are we not allowed to talk about" is a piss-poor code phrase for "Am I not allowed to be wrong?"

Whoopi was wrong. Factually wrong. That's all that matters. Trying to make the discussion about literally everything else is... a problem.
 
"Are we not allowed to talk about" is a piss-poor code phrase for "Am I not allowed to be wrong?"

No. It means I'm seeing some people trying to shut down discussion with emotional displays of hyperbolic rant. Accusing posters of being bad people because they don't say precisely what you think they should say is not good behavior.

Whoopi was wrong. Factually wrong. That's all that matters. Trying to make the discussion about literally everything else is... a problem.

Declaring a thing to be so doesn't make it so. Particularly when the subject matter is a complex one involving the interplay of contemporary race sociology, historical analysis, and existential ethical questions. You may hate Whoopi Goldberg's guts as loudly as you like, but simply declaring that she's wrong, you're right, end of discussion carries very little weight anywhere, particularly here.
 
No. It means I'm seeing some people trying to shut down discussion with emotional displays of hyperbolic rant. Accusing posters of being bad people because they don't say precisely what you think they should say is not good behavior.



Declaring a thing to be so doesn't make it so. Particularly when the subject matter is a complex one involving the interplay of contemporary race sociology, historical analysis, and existential ethical questions. You may hate Whoopi Goldberg's guts as loudly as you like, but simply declaring that she's wrong, you're right, end of discussion carries very little weight anywhere, particularly here.

+1

Whoopi wasn't wrong to say the Holocost was ultimately about inhumanity. She was wrong to say it *wasn't* about race. It was, and obviously so. She worded it poorly, and without sensitivity, while making the broader point.
 
Skeptoid:



Source

Nazi racism was based in the idea that the Aryan race was inherently superior to all others and had a divine mandate to rule over them. Of these inferior races, the Jewish people were seen as a particular threat for various reasons that you'd probably need to read Mein Kampf to fully appreciate.

So it's not true that the Holocaust was not about race. Racial purity was hard-coded into the core tenets of National Socialism. However, it is also true that from an African-American perspective, the racial divide is hard-coded as being between white skin and black skin. So it could be said that Whoopi was right... from a certain point of view.

Does that mean Darth Vader IS her father?
 
Whoopi wasn't wrong to say the Holocost was ultimately about inhumanity. She was wrong to say it *wasn't* about race. It was, and obviously so. She worded it poorly, and without sensitivity, while making the broader point.

The broader point didn't need making, though. We all understand that the Holocaust was monumentally inhumane.
 
The broader point didn't need making, though. We all understand that the Holocaust was monumentally inhumane.

I might go so far as to say that anyone on The View has not made any point worth making for years, but that's another broader point.
 

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