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I am torn about the Filibuster!!!

I just don't know anymore. But clearly there is something very UNdemocratic, about the filibuster. If the American people choose a Republican President, and a Republican House, and a Republican Senate, maybe we should let them pass their bills if they are unified.

I always find this claim curious. Is democracy really based on the will of the majority rules? Fifty percent plus 1? Now I get that having the minority rule is clearly worse, but is that what really happens? It's not as if the Republicans are getting to pass a lot of their own bills; all they can do is block the Democrats' bills that rile them up enough.

As for me, I see lots of problems with allowing either party unfettered access to the levers of power; Lord Acton had something to say about that. The filibuster limits change and as a conservative I always prefer slower change to dramatic and sudden change. That said, I recognize that some change is necessary and good, and a lot of the changes that have improved society in the last 100 years have been championed by liberals.

That said, they always tend to go too far (as do the Republicans when they get too powerful), exceeding any real mandate.
 
Its true, the filibuster was supposed to be used to block bills that a Senator found especially objectionable or unacceptable, due to moral or budgetary reasons.

But starting in 2009 the GOP used the filibuster to instead block ANY and EVERY bill that had a (D) infront of it. Even when they admitted that the actually supported the bill and would vote for the bill. They simply wanted to stop the Democrat and Obama agenda from getting any success, for purely political reasons.

Meanwhile, Dems still passed highly ideological bills through Reconciliation, which kinda makes the filibuster meaningless.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/democrats-used-filibuster-over-300-times-gop-once
 
I always find this claim curious. Is democracy really based on the will of the majority rules? Fifty percent plus 1? Now I get that having the minority rule is clearly worse, but is that what really happens? It's not as if the Republicans are getting to pass a lot of their own bills; all they can do is block the Democrats' bills that rile them up enough.

As for me, I see lots of problems with allowing either party unfettered access to the levers of power; Lord Acton had something to say about that. The filibuster limits change and as a conservative I always prefer slower change to dramatic and sudden change. That said, I recognize that some change is necessary and good, and a lot of the changes that have improved society in the last 100 years have been championed by liberals.

That said, they always tend to go too far (as do the Republicans when they get too powerful), exceeding any real mandate.

Democracy is supposed to be the marketplace of ideas and I would think that anyone who stands for free markets wouldn't oppose that. The filibuster is really a tool to prevent the implementation of the ideas the market says it wants. So are the Electoral College and the Senate.

Most Americans today support choice.
Most Americans are against discrimination.
Most are in favor of universal healthcare.
Most want to end the pharmaceutical tyranny of the drug companies.
Most want an investment in the nation's infrastructure.
Most want cannabis legalized nationwide.

These are all huge winners with the public. But the filibuster is one of a few reasons these things never seem to become reality.
 
Because of the filibuster, voters have no idea what the Parties actually stand for, since so little can actually get passed, and what does is always a compromise.
Removing the filibuster would allow politicians to pass many more, but much smaller Bills, instead of the omnibus that is the only way for anything get a majority, because everyone got something.

The filibuster helps politicians far more than voters, as it prevents transparency and provides a handy excuse for everything.

Get rid of it already.
 
That wouldn't be hypocritical. That would be bad strategy. In this scenario, the filibuster would still exist, but only one side would be using it, thus having an advantage.

It would be ethical. I regularly refuse to do activity others would do even though it would benefit me, because acting ethically matters.
 
I think that in the last two decades, the filibuster has been used much more by Republicans to block Democratic legislation than the other way around.

If something like Concealed-Carry Reciprocity is the price Democrats have to pay to get rid of the filibuster, it would be well worth it. I don't think it's really what is driving most gun violence.

On the other hand, there's lots of legislation that Democrats would have liked to have passed, but they lacked 60 votes in the senate to do it.
 
I think that in the last two decades, the filibuster has been used much more by Republicans to block Democratic legislation than the other way around.

If something like Concealed-Carry Reciprocity is the price Democrats have to pay to get rid of the filibuster, it would be well worth it. I don't think it's really what is driving most gun violence.

On the other hand, there's lots of legislation that Democrats would have liked to have passed, but they lacked 60 votes in the senate to do it.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/0...filibuster-but-they-use-it-more-than-the-gop/
 
They didn't undo the Filibuster for legislation, even though Trump urged them to do so.
True. I guess the question is why they didn't undo the filibuster..

The republicans basically had 2 goals.... tax cuts for millionaires, and to destroy as much of the government functionality as possible. They were able to accomplish this through a combination of reconciliation and Trump executive orders, so they were able to accomplish most of what they wanted without changing the filibuster.

I suspect Moscow Mitch would have removed the filibuster if he thought it was necessary to accomplish the above goals, but he probably thought it was more useful to leave it in place so he could complain if the Democrats do it.
 
If you received a mesh implant for a torn filibuster, and suffered complications or needed corrective surgery afterward, you may be entitled to cash compensation. Call the law offices of Miles Ransome today. Don't wait! Your time to act is limited.
 
I think that in the last two decades, the filibuster has been used much more by Republicans to block Democratic legislation than the other way around.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/0...filibuster-but-they-use-it-more-than-the-gop/

(Article showing Democrat's increased use of the filibuster)
True, the Democrats did make a lot of use of the filibuster (especially when Stubby McBonespurs was president).

I think most of the "republicans overused it" comes from Obama's presidency, where (at the time) the republicans WERE setting records for the use of the filibuster. (So the current situation is basically a ratcheting up of the situation.)

The policies and personalities of those involved should also be considered. Obama, (despite the right wing attempts to portray him as a communist nigerian) was a pretty main-stream politician. On the other hand, Trump was an incompetent lunatic pushing far-right nonsense, and the republicans had torpedoed any sense of bipartisanship. If one side is not interested in compromise AT ALL, that makes use of the filibuster more justified.
 
Its true, the filibuster was supposed to be used to block bills that a Senator found especially objectionable or unacceptable, due to moral or budgetary reasons.

But starting in 2009 the GOP used the filibuster to instead block ANY and EVERY bill that had a (D) infront of it. Even when they admitted that the actually supported the bill and would vote for the bill. They simply wanted to stop the Democrat and Obama agenda from getting any success, for purely political reasons.

Meanwhile, Dems still passed highly ideological bills through Reconciliation, which kinda makes the filibuster meaningless.

A filibuster rule cannot be either created or destroyed. It was only created accidentally. It cannot be created or restored intentionally. For any given session, the majority party is not going to give the minority party a filibuster rule. The rule would require a majority approval, and the majority will never approve. Therefore, a filibuster rule will never be restored.

A filibuster rule also cannot be properly destroyed. A vote to remove the rule would itself be subject to a filibuster, which it almost certainly would be. That means the majority party would have to have 60 Senators to vote to change the rule. But if they have a majority of 60, they can block any filibuster by cloture, so they have no need to eliminate a filibuster rule that would be useful to them in the future if they become the majority. Therefore, a majority of 60 will never vote to destroy the filibuster.

That is why eliminating the filibuster through parliamentary loophole tricks is called the "nuclear" option. Out of necessity to escape the self-perpetuating rule, it blows up the rules and destroys the filibuster rule forever. Once it is gone, it is gone for good, daddy-o.

The party the plays the filibuster destructo card gains a benefit during that Senate session. When the filibuster is gone, that affects both sides. But when the majority party first destroys it, they get the benefit first. That gives the party that eliminates the filibuster a benefit because they get to pass measures as a majority during that session and the minority only gets that benefit if they maybe possibly become the majority in the future.

The question is not if the filibuster will be eliminated, but when and by which party and to what benefit. You do not want to do it right before an election where you may lose the majority, because then you squandered your powerful magic item on only a couple months of benefit. Play it right after an election. But not when you have a super majority where you do need it. Or only a slim majority where you may not even get a simple majority vote on the big things you want to pass. Or when you expect what you want will get bi-partisan support.

Reserve that magic item for when it gives the greatest benefit. Even if it passes to the other side, as long as they will be in the same position to question whether to spend it. That means this gets into a very weird territory of game theory. Everybody knows it has power, but it has drawbacks for both sides, and it can only be used once, so each side has to decide if they want to use it now or wait to hope to use it later for something better.
 
Democracy is supposed to be the marketplace of ideas and I would think that anyone who stands for free markets wouldn't oppose that. The filibuster is really a tool to prevent the implementation of the ideas the market says it wants. So are the Electoral College and the Senate.

Most Americans today support choice.
Most Americans are against discrimination.
Most are in favor of universal healthcare.
Most want to end the pharmaceutical tyranny of the drug companies.
Most want an investment in the nation's infrastructure.
Most want cannabis legalized nationwide.

These are all huge winners with the public. But the filibuster is one of a few reasons these things never seem to become reality.

The filibuster rule was established by a simple majority vote. It won out in the marketplace of ideas. The Senators who stand by it have all been elected by simple majority votes. More winning in the marketplace of ideas.
 
A filibuster rule also cannot be properly destroyed. A vote to remove the rule would itself be subject to a filibuster...
The filibuster rule was established by a simple majority vote.
These aren't really accurate.

For one, there is no "filibuster rule." More accurately, there is an oversight in the 1806 change to the senate rules that allows one to talk indefinitely as a means of preventing a vote. It's one of those "the rules don't say a dog can't play basketball" things.

Even then, the talking filibuster wouldn't occur for several decades, and then the cloture vote would be added to the senate rules over a century after the initial rules change.

Furthermore, senate rules are not subject to the filibuster. They pass along a simple majority vote.
 
The filibuster rule was established by a simple majority vote. It won out in the marketplace of ideas. The Senators who stand by it have all been elected by simple majority votes. More winning in the marketplace of ideas.

There was never a vote to establish a filibuster rule. As I said, a filibuster rule cannot (in practice) be created. It was created by accident. Burr thought the Rules were too messy and complicated and convinced the Senate to abandon the "previous question" rule established in standard parliamentary procedure and Robert's Rule of Order as unnecessary. It wasn't until about 30 years later that someone realized that absent that rule, they could do a filibuster.

As I said, once it is created it cannot be destroyed. Except by obscure and questionable loopholes that will only be utilized in certain circumstances of advantage. The filibuster is no marketplace of ideas. It is an aberration prevented from destruction only controlled by mitigation. It is not something that any Senator wanted or that any Seante would agree to. It is the opposite of a marketplace of ideas. Nobody bought it. Nobody wanted to buy it. But once it is accentually there, nobody can get rid of it.

This is not a marketplace of ideas. This is an accident that self-referentially resists removal and can only be mitigated.
 
These aren't really accurate.

For one, there is no "filibuster rule." More accurately, there is an oversight in the 1806 change to the senate rules that allows one to talk indefinitely as a means of preventing a vote. It's one of those "the rules don't say a dog can't play basketball" things.

Even then, the talking filibuster wouldn't occur for several decades, and then the cloture vote would be added to the senate rules over a century after the initial rules change.

Furthermore, senate rules are not subject to the filibuster. They pass along a simple majority vote.

My statement is really accurate. I specifically said "a" filibuster rule rather than "the" filibuster rule because there no actual such thing as "the" filibuster rule but "a" filibuster rule does exist and could potentially exist by several different other than the currently exiting propagation of allowance of the filibuster in the contemporary Senate.

The comparison to no law preventing a dog playing baseball is inappropriate. This is more like there was a law preventing a dog from playing baseball. But nobody was even trying to have a dog play baseball, so it is a stupid worthless rule. Get rid of it. Then 30 or 150 or 200 years later it turns out people are playing dogs just to mess things up. And only dogs can overturn the no-dog rule, which will never happen.

Senate Rules are subject to the filibuster. That is what prevented rules prohibiting it around 100 years ago. That is why the Senate in recent years has used the technically accurate but questionably unethical complex parliamentary procedure loophole to implement the "nuclear" option to eliminate the filibuster in certain circumstances.
 
Democracy is supposed to be the marketplace of ideas and I would think that anyone who stands for free markets wouldn't oppose that. The filibuster is really a tool to prevent the implementation of the ideas the market says it wants. So are the Electoral College and the Senate.

Most Americans today support choice.
Most Americans are against discrimination.
Most are in favor of universal healthcare.
Most want to end the pharmaceutical tyranny of the drug companies.
Most want an investment in the nation's infrastructure.
Most want cannabis legalized nationwide.

These are all huge winners with the public. But the filibuster is one of a few reasons these things never seem to become reality.

The infrastructure bill got passed. As for choice, the last I heard abortion is still legal in 50 states, although there are restriction that people are moaning about in Texas. Universal health care has been here for years, what the Democrats are trying to pass is universal health insurance. Pharmaceutical tyranny of the drug companies? Dang, you got me cold there, providing for that is right in the GOP platform. How did I miss that? Cannabis is legalized, the feds and a few states just have to catch up.
 
Technically, neither party needs a majority of votes to take the White House, Senate and House.

The problem with the filibuster or any other rule is that the GQP uses them as weapons to take more power, not as guides or safety measures.

I've said it before many times: The Dems need to stop acting scared of what the GQP might do and act as if they will do it anyway.
Yeah. The Dems have to be able to do something to get people to vote for them. The deny everything strategy of the GOP hurts them more. If bad laws are passed they can be revoked.

The zombie democrats achieve almost nothing.
 
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Senate Rules are subject to the filibuster. That is what prevented rules prohibiting it around 100 years ago. That is why the Senate in recent years has used the technically accurate but questionably unethical complex parliamentary procedure loophole to implement the "nuclear" option to eliminate the filibuster in certain circumstances.

I had to go back and look up the details and, effectively, we're both right, though you described the process more accurately than I did. More info here.

So yes, the rules can be "changed" with 50 votes, but not through an actual rules change, but rather, by having the majority leader "reinterpret" the rules, which then becomes binding precedent... seems an awful lot like a rules change to me. It's just loopholes on loopholes on loopholes.
 
Also, if it seems like I'm nitpicking the details of the filibuster, it's not because I'm addicted to being right on the internet (I can quit whenever I want). Instead, I think a lot of the inertia regarding filibuster reform is tied to the misguided idea that we're talking about a carefully crafted set of rules explicitly designed to maintain bipartisanship and promote debate and compromise.
 
Democracy is supposed to be the marketplace of ideas and I would think that anyone who stands for free markets wouldn't oppose that. The filibuster is really a tool to prevent the implementation of the ideas the market says it wants. So are the Electoral College and the Senate.

Most Americans today support choice.
Most Americans are against discrimination.
Most are in favor of universal healthcare.
Most want to end the pharmaceutical tyranny of the drug companies.
Most want an investment in the nation's infrastructure.
Most want cannabis legalized nationwide.

These are all huge winners with the public. But the filibuster is one of a few reasons these things never seem to become reality.
The infrastructure bill got passed.
First of all, while ONE infrastructure bill got passed, the user may be referring to the "build back better" act, which is still popular.

Secondly, the American Rescue plan did pass, although the only reason it did was because it was done through reconciliation (which circumvents the filibuster).
As for choice, the last I heard abortion is still legal in 50 states, although there are restriction that people are moaning about in Texas.
Interesting way to phrase it... half the population of texas has lost significant control over their bodies, and you characterize it as "moaning".

Universal health care has been here for years, what the Democrats are trying to pass is universal health insurance.
Not really sure what you are characterizing as 'universal health care'.

Are you assuming "doctors are available so everyone is covered"? Because having doctors available is only relevant of people have the finances to PAY for those doctors.
Pharmaceutical tyranny of the drug companies? Dang, you got me cold there, providing for that is right in the GOP platform.
Given the fact that the GOP had had a virtual lock on power for much of the past 4 years, yet failed to enact any sort of significant reform, I doubt many people consider the GOP platform to be serious.
How did I miss that? Cannabis is legalized, the feds and a few states just have to catch up.
Ummm... "the feds" cover, well, the entire country. And even in states where it has already been legalized, the federal restrictions are still messing up businesses involved in the trade.
 

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