Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[TomB]

I wish the article linked to the actual lawsuit. The details matter a lot.

The way I land on this is that actively concealing information about a student from a parent is probably a legit critique. There's hints in the articles that this isn't the case. The teacher set-up a sit-down with the parent to discuss the matter, so at least by that point there was transparency.

Do teachers have an affirmative duty to narc on students to their parents for non-disciplinary issues? Do they have a duty to out queer kids to their parents? I would think not.

Do students need parental consent to join a school club in California?

I think the assertion here is that the teachers saw a kid who, presumable, displayed some sort of behavioral pattern and then either suggested a diagnosis and/or suggested participation in a group where there were social rewards for having a particular condition. (Recruiting a specific student to a group rather than just making it available and known in general.)

The problem is that teachers are not doctors and they are not psychologists. That's why teachers can't diagnose ADHD. But they can submit their suspicions to the school counselor who can suggest evaluation to the parents.

But it gets fuzzy because suggesting their child be evaluated for an identity disorder may get a different response from parents than a suggestion to evaluate for ADHD or another learning impairment.

At what point does a teacher step across the limits of their qualifications? And how do you get kids help with issues where the parents may react badly?

This particular case, as written doesn't sound like the parent freaked out. It sounds like she went along with it and then the child, when out of the school environment for a while due to covid, reverted back on her own. That's written from the parent's perspective. It appears that the lawsuit did not appear until after the student went back to her original gender.

 

[Ziggurat]

This particular case, as written doesn't sound like the parent freaked out.

I would agree. There's the obvious caveat that we're only hearing their side, and the facts may not be as represented. But if their description of events is accurate, then the school absolutely stepped over the line. They didn't simply fail to tell parents about something the child was doing on their own. They actively pushed the child towards transitioning, and concealed their efforts from the parents. And that's not OK. It's not OK even if the child truly is transgender and should transition.

 

[digger]

I'm not seeing how Occam helps here to echo Myriad, each seems plausible, and they are not mutually exclusive.

Calling it "psy-ops" is of course a straw man, but the idea that educators encourage, reward, suggest, and even pressure kids to identify as trans is pretty well documented.

Oh, it is? Show me please. I love documents.

 

[digger]

I would agree. There's the obvious caveat that we're only hearing their side, and the facts may not be as represented. But if their description of events is accurate, then the school absolutely stepped over the line. They didn't simply fail to tell parents about something the child was doing on their own. They actively pushed the child towards transitioning, and concealed their efforts from the parents. And that's not OK. It's not OK even if the child truly is transgender and should transition.

So with the obvious caveat that this might all be anti trans propaganda, if it isn't than there's definitely a problem here.

Or maybe all of the anti trans propaganda is the problem.

 

[Meadmaker]

Oh, it is? Show me please. I love documents.

Read the eight continuations. It's been brought up a lot.

 

[Lithrael]

Yeah that sounds fair.

I do wish we had the capacity to be more playful with the whole thing though. I’d love a world where it didn’t take any more than dedicated cosplay to get treated socially like whatever gender, where the body dysmorphia stuff was a totally different issue, where kids had gender cross play as a normal part of play, all kinds of stuff like that. Most of the trouble would really be getting to the point where the social option of unhooking gender from sex entirely actually existed. Having it be cool to be bodily male and put on your female presentation and people call you ma’am and mean it, or bodily female and put on your male persona and people call you sir and guys at work don’t keep trying to flirt with you 24/7…

It’s possible this only sounds ideal to people that don’t actually ever feel like dating, lol

 

[Ziggurat]

So with the obvious caveat that this might all be anti trans propaganda, if it isn't than there's definitely a problem here.

Or maybe all of the anti trans propaganda is the problem.

Maybe.

But I wouldn't bet money on it. Would you?

 

[theprestige]

Or maybe all of the anti trans propaganda is the problem.

Maybe. But the irony of this thread is that it's the pro-trans propaganda that's been doing the most damage to the cause.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Maybe. But the irony of this thread is that it's the pro-trans propaganda that's been doing the most damage to the cause.

I don't think anything said on this forum about any topic is doing any damage, or having any positive impact, at all.

I don't think anyone has really been persuaded one way or the other here. Nor do I think persuasion has much to do with the broader civil rights struggle at play in society generally.

I imagine that this current debate will follow a similar path of the gay rights struggle. The most vehement bigots will eventually die off as old age takes them.

 

[theprestige]

I do wish we had the capacity to be more playful with the whole thing though. I’d love a world where it didn’t take any more than dedicated cosplay to get treated socially like whatever gender

My train of thought always stalls out at this point right here.

"Treated socially like a woman" makes little to no sense in our current society. The historical sense, now rightly deprecated, is generally understood to be sexist, oppressive, and even abusive. Nowadays, socially treating someone differently because of their gender is pretty much taboo.

Not only that, but how you dress shouldn't imply your gender anyway. Why should you assume I'm a "woman" just because of how I dress? Maybe I just like wearing drag. Maybe I'm hacking the entire concept of gender. Maybe it's none of your business to assume what my gender is. Maybe trying to figure out how to treat me based on my clothing is a problem, not a solution.

I think this is all really about being treated sexually like whatever gender.

 

[Ziggurat]

Having it be cool to be bodily male and put on your female presentation and people call you ma’am and mean it, or bodily female and put on your male persona and people call you sir and guys at work don’t keep trying to flirt with you 24/7…

It’s possible this only sounds ideal to people that don’t actually ever feel like dating, lol

Quite so. Finding a mate is pretty damned central to both sex and gender.

I've seen plenty of feminist complaints about the bad aspects of masculinity. But the thing is, women in the heterosexual dating scene reward stereotypically masculine men. That's what they want, and so that's what men try to live up to. To the extent that feminist women don't like stereotypical masculinity, they mostly have other women to blame for it.

Women have more flexibility in this regard, but it's not infinite. If they shut off their sex appeal but turn it back on, they can still find dating prospects easily enough. But that only works when they're young, and if they're at least moderately attractive. If they're ugly or they haven't found a partner before they hit the age wall, they may be out of luck. That can lead to considerable bitterness about gender. It's really not fair to anyone, but given the realities of human sexuality, there are no prospects for making it fair.

 

[theprestige]

I don't think anything said on this forum about any topic is doing any damage, or having any positive impact, at all.

I don't think anyone has really been persuaded one way or the other here.

You're mistaken about that. I have been persuaded that trans-inclusionary activism is inherently misogynistic, as a result of the discussion in this thread. Primarily by the arguments of trans-activists.

 

[Ziggurat]

I imagine that this current debate will follow a similar path of the gay rights struggle. The most vehement bigots will eventually die off as old age takes them.

There will likely be some of that. But there are also parallels with the whole 60's "free love" stuff, where people will think, "WTF was that nonsense about?" The radical aspects of the agenda are not destined to be accepted by society at large no matter how many vehement bigots die of old age.

 

[digger]

Read the eight continuations. It's been brought up a lot.

No thanks. How about you provide the documentation that you mentioned?

 

[digger]

You're mistaken about that. I have been persuaded that trans-inclusionary activism is inherently misogynistic, as a result of the discussion in this thread. Primarily by the arguments of trans-activists.

Oh yeah right. So this thread turned you into a TERF. And you didn't think that before?

 

[Meadmaker]

There will likely be some of that. But there are also parallels with the whole 60's "free love" stuff, where people will think, "WTF was that nonsense about?" The radical aspects of the agenda are not destined to be accepted by society at large no matter how many vehement bigots die of old age.

I thought the "radical aspects" of free love were now called "dating".

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I thought the "radical aspects" of free love were now called "dating".

That's what I was thinking too. Social norms around the issue are much more relaxed as a consequence of the sexual revolution.

 

[lionking]

I don't think anything said on this forum about any topic is doing any damage, or having any positive impact, at all.

I don't think anyone has really been persuaded one way or the other here. Nor do I think persuasion has much to do with the broader civil rights struggle at play in society generally.

I imagine that this current debate will follow a similar path of the gay rights struggle. The most vehement bigots will eventually die off as old age takes them.

Really? I think you (and some others) referring to certain posters as TERFS, transphobes and other insulting terms is quite damaging.

 

[Ziggurat]

I thought the "radical aspects" of free love were now called "dating".

Uh... no. The radical aspects were the whole communal sex cult stuff.

If a hot guy wants to bang a whole bunch of chicks now, he just goes on Tinder, he doesn't actually make them all live together out in the boonies.

 

[theprestige]

<personal attack snipped>
And you didn't think that before?

No I did not. The realization that trans-activism is inherently misogynistic is very recent, as I've been participating in this discussion, considering the points argued by trans-activists, and observing the actions of transsexual pioneers.

I came into this thread assuming that transwomen were women, and that there were only a few awkward complications around things like women's sports and safe spaces that needed some further discussion. It's as a result of this further discussion that I've come to the conclusion that the awkward complications are much deeper and broader than I assumed, and that trans-activists have no answers, only logical fallacies and vile insults.

And you're not even bringing any discussion, just the insults.