Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[TurkeysGhost]

The gullibility of these right wing rubes is an infinitely renewable resource. If only there were some way to convert their outrage into electricity and we'd solve the climate crisis.

Litter Boxes for Students Who Identify as Furries? Not So, Says School Official
A Michigan school superintendent debunked the rumor after a video from a December school board meeting resurfaced in which a speaker airs concerns about students who “identify as cats.”

...

The school board members at the meeting did not respond to Ms. Hansen’s comments, but her remarks gained traction after Meshawn Maddock, a chairwoman of the Michigan Republican Party, shared a video of the school board meeting and the comments on Facebook on Thursday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/23/us/politics/michigan-litter-box-school.html

GOP's strategy seems to be to leave no crank unamplified. A healthy state of affairs for serious public discourse.

 

[d4m10n]

Otherkin is a valid lived condition.

 

[theprestige]

The gullibility of these right wing rubes is an infinitely renewable resource. If only there were some way to convert their outrage into electricity and we'd solve the climate crisis.



https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/23/us/politics/michigan-litter-box-school.html

GOP's strategy seems to be to leave no crank unamplified. A healthy state of affairs for serious public discourse.

What if I told you transgenderism is crankery?

Otherkin is a valid lived condition.

As is autogynaephilia.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What if I told you transgenderism is crankery?

I'd say I've heard this one before.

 

[theprestige]

I'd say I've heard this one before.

Probably gonna keep hearing it from time to time, until someone finally un-asses a scientific rebuttal that endorses self-ID and specific changes to public policy as necessary elements in the medical treatment of the condition.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Until we have brain scan that might be determinative, it seems difficult to remove the possibility that a person could be born with a biology that is sufficiently divided between male and female (beyond what is within the bell curve) that that division within the same person gets expressed by or is mediated through gender stereotypes.

What do you mean by "sufficiently divided"? Are you talking about a hypothetical person who can experience both menstruation and nocturnal ejaculation?

 

[TomB]

The gullibility of these right wing rubes is an infinitely renewable resource. If only there were some way to convert their outrage into electricity and we'd solve the climate crisis.



https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/23/us/politics/michigan-litter-box-school.html

GOP's strategy seems to be to leave no crank unamplified. A healthy state of affairs for serious public discourse.

And yet you add your own wattage to the amplifier...

 

[TomB]

What do you mean by "sufficiently divided"? Are you talking about a hypothetical person who can experience both menstruation and nocturnal ejaculation?

He means, until we have conclusive tests that distinguish between dimorphic psychological profiles that are typically associated with physical sexes that can empirically demonstrate a mismatch.

It gets to the nature vs. nurture question is psychology. How much of your behavior/psychology is heritable and how much is learned from experiences?

It's not a question unique to this topic.

 

[Paul2]

What do you mean by "sufficiently divided"? Are you talking about a hypothetical person who can experience both menstruation and nocturnal ejaculation?

Sorry, I kinda knew I was being obscure. I didn't mean that a person could have ova and sperm, merely that other ways of how male and female are expressed biologically (hormones, brain structure, perhaps) can be (usually is?) mixed. And that trans folk with body dysphoria may well have those expressions mixed in different ways than those without.

 

[Graham2001]

An AP report on a case in California where a parent is claiming that the teachers 'groomed' her daughter to become a trans-male.

LOS ANGELES (AP) — A mother who claims teachers secretly manipulated her 11-year-old daughter into changing her gender identity and name has filed a legal case against a tiny California school district.

Spreckels Union School District was responsible for “extreme and outrageous conduct” that led the student on a path toward transitioning as a boy and drove a wedge between mother and child, according to the claim filed Wednesday by a conservative legal group.

https://apnews.com/article/business...e7b445361?mc_cid=82d7038f04&mc_eid=1bdaa22dc1

 

[Meadmaker]

An AP report on a case in California where a parent is claiming that the teachers 'groomed' her daughter to become a trans-male.





https://apnews.com/article/business...e7b445361?mc_cid=82d7038f04&mc_eid=1bdaa22dc1

I get privacy laws, so I get why we can't know more about cases like this, but I really wish we could hear directly from some of the people involved.

So, we know that for a while, the kid was acting as a boy and asking to be called a boy's name, and that sort of thing. We are told that, right now, she is not. So, is that because she feels parental pressure? Is she "really trans", or not?

And the point of that last question is that it might be that there is literally no way to know, and there might not even be an actual answer to the question.

I would like to hear from some 20 year olds who went through some of this, and now can speak out without permission. Whether it is people who experimented with gender non-conformity of some sort, or people who shared locker rooms with the opposite sex, or other variations on that. Looking back, now with an adult perspective, what are their thoughts? Time will tell, I suppose.

ETA: As for this specific lawsuit, I wonder if there's legal merit. I rarely sought or required written parental permission to participate in school activities. I'm not sure I understand the basis for the lawsuit. Of course, times change. Maybe now, parents are always notified about participation even in non-athletic clubs.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

An AP report on a case in California where a parent is claiming that the teachers 'groomed' her daughter to become a trans-male.





https://apnews.com/article/business...e7b445361?mc_cid=82d7038f04&mc_eid=1bdaa22dc1

Let's apply Occam's razor. What's more likely, that some social justice teacher ran a psy-op on a child and converted them into a trans person, or that a conservative parent is out of touch and unaccepting of their queer child?

 

[Myriad]

Let's apply Occam's razor. What's more likely, that some social justice teacher ran a psy-op on a child and converted them into a trans person, or that a conservative parent is out of touch and unaccepting of their queer child?

Based on the information available, those both seem very likely, and they're not mutually exclusive.

"I've called you into today to let you know that your eleven-year-old child has converted to Islam, after weeks of participating in our Find Your Religion Club without your knowledge. I'm sure you won't want to be an out-of-touch unaccepting islamophobe about it." Yeah, that obviously wouldn't wash; I don't think it's acceptable for gender identity either.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Based on the information available, those both seem very likely, and they're not mutually exclusive.

"I've called you into today to let you know that your eleven-year-old child has converted to Islam, after weeks of participating in our Find Your Religion Club without your knowledge. I'm sure you won't want to be an out-of-touch unaccepting islamophobe about it." Yeah, that obviously wouldn't wash; I don't think it's acceptable for gender identity either.

Would a school have a duty to inform parents that their child was reading a Quran?

That's really the rub of the question. Do teachers have to anticipate a parent's potential objection to such things? Beats me.

Actively concealing is one thing, but failing to narc out a student to their parent seems another. Where exactly these teachers fell on this distinction will probably matter a lot.

Other more enlightened districts get ahead of this issue by criminalizing any discussion of the existence of LGBT topics.

A Republican-led committee in the Florida state house has advanced a bill that would ban all discussion of sexuality and gender identity in schools, a move advocates say will “erase” LGTBQ+ students and history.

The Florida house education and employment committee passed the Parental Rights in Education bill, also known as the “Don’t Say Gay” bill, last week.

The bill requires the implementation of “procedures to reinforce fundamental right of parents to make decisions regarding upbringing and control of their children”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/24/florida-republican-committee-dont-say-gay-bill

 

[Hevneren]

Otherkin is a valid lived condition.

Indeed. Nano has a right to a litterbox.

 

[Meadmaker]

Let's apply Occam's razor. What's more likely, that some social justice teacher ran a psy-op on a child and converted them into a trans person, or that a conservative parent is out of touch and unaccepting of their queer child?

I'm not seeing how Occam helps here to echo Myriad, each seems plausible, and they are not mutually exclusive.

Calling it "psy-ops" is of course a straw man, but the idea that educators encourage, reward, suggest, and even pressure kids to identify as trans is pretty well documented.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not seeing how Occam helps here to echo Myriad, each seems plausible, and they are not mutually exclusive.

Calling it "psy-ops" is of course a straw man, but the idea that educators encourage, reward, suggest, and even pressure kids to identify as trans is pretty well documented.

I wish the article linked to the actual lawsuit. The details matter a lot.

The way I land on this is that actively concealing information about a student from a parent is probably a legit critique. There's hints in the articles that this isn't the case. The teacher set-up a sit-down with the parent to discuss the matter, so at least by that point there was transparency.

Do teachers have an affirmative duty to narc on students to their parents for non-disciplinary issues? Do they have a duty to out queer kids to their parents? I would think not.

Do students need parental consent to join a school club in California?

 

[Meadmaker]

I wish the article linked to the actual lawsuit. The details matter a lot.

The way I land on this is that actively concealing information about a student from a parent is probably a legit critique. There's hints in the articles that this isn't the case. The teacher set-up a sit-down with the parent to discuss the matter, so at least by that point there was transparency.

Do teachers have an affirmative duty to narc on students to their parents for non-disciplinary issues? Do they have a duty to out queer kids to their parents? I would think not.

Do students need parental consent to join a school club in California?

I wonder about the same questions. Things have changed so much since I was a kid I don't trust my own experience as a guide.

I think the breast binding thing is where it definitely crossed a line. I'm going to have to look up to see if that works. I've never heard of it

 

[d4m10n]

Actively concealing is one thing, but failing to narc out a student to their parent seems another.

Would you consider it active concealment to use preferred pronouns during the school day but natal sex pronouns during teacher/parent meetings?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Would you consider it active concealment to use preferred pronouns during the school day but natal sex pronouns during teacher/parent meetings?

Hard to say, context is important.