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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
You do know that it is quite usual for online articles to be edited in retrospect, usually citing 'corrections'?

What would be needed are the first edition hard copy newspapers.
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Why? They are most likely, in the wake of a chaotic event like a ship sinking, to contain erroneous information.

Are you now alleging that the press are all in on the conspiracy as well?
 
Vixen said:
In addition, if as early as 29.9.1994 Bengt Stenmark head of sea safety at the Swedish Maritime Administration was sacked - for contradicting the JAIC version of events even at that initial stage
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No he was not. He continued to work for the Swedish Maritime Administration, as head of research.

And he did not criticize JAIC, he was unhappy that a separate investigation was started to investigate how his department handled earlier reports of failures. That investigation came to the conclusion that his department lacked governance, and failed in investigations and analysis.

He also accused Norske Veritas of taking bribes, and said that they were untrustworthy.
 
Here_to_learn said:
Nope, remember that this is your claim:


(My Hilight)



You claim Sven Anér as a source. Are you now saying that you actually can't quote what he actually say about the situation?

I'm not buying a book just because you claim it would contain something.
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I have been following the progress of this disaster since it happened in September 1994. It is not reasonable to expect me to remember when and where I first heard, saw or read of when such-and-such point was made.

I can tell you, that Aner, was the investigative journalist who came up with the revelation that the two US cargo aircraft had been waiting at Arlanda ATT and left with nine unnamed passengers shortly after, the bill paid for by the US Embassy in Stockholm. His source provided the receipts.
 
Vixen said:
I have been following the progress of this disaster since it happened in September 1994. It is not reasonable to expect me to remember when and where I first heard, saw or read of when such-and-such point was made.

I can tell you, that Aner, was the investigative journalist who came up with the revelation that the two US cargo aircraft had been waiting at Arlanda ATT and left with nine unnamed passengers shortly after, the bill paid for by the US Embassy in Stockholm. His source provided the receipts.
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That clears it up, you actually don't have a source for that he used the word "disappear" in relation to this. Then I expect you will not use him as a reference again for that claim.
 
Here_to_learn said:
No he was not. He continued to work for the Swedish Maritime Administration, as head of research.

And he did not criticize JAIC, he was unhappy that a separate investigation was started to investigate how his department handled earlier reports of failures. That investigation came to the conclusion that his department lacked governance, and failed in investigations and analysis.

He also accused Norske Veritas of taking bribes, and said that they were untrustworthy.
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Of course that would be the reason.

The official reason as you state, and then there is the real reason.
 
Vixen said:
Of course that would be the reason.

The official reason as you state, and then there is the real reason.
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Oh, another conspiracy!

But of course you can show your claim that he criticized JAIC before he changed jobs! I can show articles from Swedish press that backs up my statements.
 
Vixen said:
Sven Anér and Drew Wilson.
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You previously admitted, when I pressed you, that Drew Wilson does not actually claim any such thing. Are you going back on this claim now?

What *exactly* does Drew Wilson say happened? A quote, please. Page numbers from you are no longer good enough; you have already shown you can't be trusted to characterize sources accurately.

Same question with Anér. Does he actually say anywhere that the Egyptians were disappeared? Does he use the actual term "enforced disapperance" or a reasonably close synonym? Does he cite the relevant paragraph from the Rome Statute, as Bollyn does?

Once more, actual quotes are required. Neither I nor any of your other interolocutors here trust you.
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
There are rumours upon rumours. Claims of TV footage which doesn't quite show a particular man stepping out of a Swedish hospital's ambulance at a hospital in Finland.

Calling this claptrap "strong evidence" is ludicrous.
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Quite a few people who knew him reported recognising him, or hearing the interview on an Estonian radio station in which Svensson claimed he had Piht and the information that Piht hailed from Hiumaa, and island which few will have heard of to have made it up. On retrieving the news reel, the fourth guy getting out of the ambulance, which people had recognised as Piht, it now cut off just at that point and Rabe was unable to get the radio recording of the Svensson interview, with the radio station telling her the tape had already been seized by Estonian intelligence agencies, like wise a news clip in Germany by the German ones.

Think about it. Your friend who is in the public eye has an embarrassing alleged indiscretion publisised in the mass media. He takes out a superinjunction. Suddenly, all the old mentions on Google of the topless pictures taken by a French papparazzi are now no longer available and all previous mentions of this regrettable allegation are completely removed from the newspapers which had previously reported on it.

So you see, it does happen. Many things related to Prince Philip, such as his will, is not available for the public to see for 70 years, so you see, suppression of facts does happen.

Now think about what might happen should a state decide something should remain 'classified'.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
You previously admitted, when I pressed you, that Drew Wilson does not actually claim any such thing. Are you going back on this claim now?

What *exactly* does Drew Wilson say happened? A quote, please. Page numbers from you are no longer good enough; you have already shown you can't be trusted to characterize sources accurately.

Same question with Anér. Does he actually say anywhere that the Egyptians were disappeared? Does he use the actual term "enforced disapperance" or a reasonably close synonym? Does he cite the relevant paragraph from the Rome Statute, as Bollyn does?

Once more, actual quotes are required. Neither I nor any of your other interolocutors here trust you.
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I will come back to you.
 
Vixen said:
Quite a few people who knew him reported recognising him, or hearing the interview on an Estonian radio station in which Svensson claimed he had Piht and the information that Piht hailed from Hiumaa, and island which few will have heard of to have made it up. On retrieving the news reel, the fourth guy getting out of the ambulance, which people had recognised as Piht, it now cut off just at that point and Rabe was unable to get the radio recording of the Svensson interview, with the radio station telling her the tape had already been seized by Estonian intelligence agencies, like wise a news clip in Germany by the German ones.

Think about it. Your friend who is in the public eye has an embarrassing alleged indiscretion publisised in the mass media. He takes out a superinjunction. Suddenly, all the old mentions on Google of the topless pictures taken by a French papparazzi are now no longer available and all previous mentions of this regrettable allegation are completely removed from the newspapers which had previously reported on it.

So you see, it does happen. Many things related to Prince Philip, such as his will, is not available for the public to see for 70 years, so you see, suppression of facts does happen.

Now think about what might happen should a state decide something should remain 'classified'.
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Repeating this stuff-of-legend doesn't make it more factual. You have a claim that several people thought they saw Piht on German TV news. I wonder if that is actually true. Maybe. You have a story of the alleged footage being reviewed and not showing him. You have a claim that the clip ends just before a 4th person comes into view and a claim that this was the guy they remember was Piht. That smells fishily like a back-constructed conspiracist claim to me. You have a claim that some or other German authorities seized the original footage which doesn't stack up when you posted more of whatever source you were quoting because they only say that the archivist said the police had also come looking for the material, not that they had taken all copies of it away. If they had, how come there's a copy which apparently fails to show Piht? Smells like BS. What level of conspiracy are we at now where someone finds and edits a German TV news report and then archives the faked one which then someone, somewhere views and discovers it doesn't show Piht?

So now the German embassy (in Finland or Sweden, it's not clear) the German police and a German TV news channel are all in on it.

Then you have an alleged interview on a Finnish radio station which can't be found. So which sinister agency are we to imagine dealt with that? And how come only one radio station got the scoop that this Swedish rescue man (whom you insist blabbed to the world's press before having medals stuffed into his mouth to shut him up) claimed he had rescued Piht?

You do recognise that a superinjunction which prevents any further report of a story being published is not a device which operates worldwide, and does not unpublish all previous reports.

This all sounds very, very much like completely made-up BS created by a paranoiac with a joining-the-dots-to-make-a-monster fixation and which would barely make a weaker episode of the X-Files.
 
Vixen said:
You and Marras are the ones with newspaper libraries at your finger tips. If you can look up complex laws on human rights and he can find Härkätie mentions from TURUN SANOMAT 1918 (or rather, claims it doesn't exist), I should have thought looking up Estonians and others trying to smuggle dangerous metals past customs from the FSU in the 90's, in Sweden and Finland, a doddle.
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You have exactly the same newspaper libraries on your fingertips as I have. If you had bothered to open the links to digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi, you would have noticed that it is completely free access. You have also posted snippets from the Helsingin Sanomat archives, so I assume that you have a subscription. Both libraries have search functions, though the one at kansalliskirjasto is quite bad because it relies on OCR and OCR is not that reliable with Fraktur fonts.

And, you are again remembering things incorrectly. I have several times stated that it is plausible that there might be an article about 1918 murder that uses the name "Härkätie". I don't say that the article definitely doesn't exist. However, I still think that it is more likely that you are remembering things wrong. You can easily prove me wrong by going to digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi and finding the article there. Every single 1918 issue of Turun Sanomat is there.

And for a reminder, the reason why I find it unlikely is that the road has not been called "Härkätie" in contemporary contexts during the recorded history. All references to the name that I have managed to find is in the context that says that the road was called that earlier. It is like someone today wrote a news item stating that "A body was found in Viapori" when the name of the place has been Suomenlinna for over a century.

The contemporary name of the road was "Hämeentie", "Suuri Hämeentie", or "Iso Hämeentie" when looked from Turku and "Turuntie" or "Suuri Turuntie" when looked from the Häme end.

(I also posted a link to a news item that called the road from Huilu to Tiensuu "Hämeentie" after you claimed that the road passing Huilu has always been called "Härkätie". You didn't comment on that, but just in case you want to claim that it was some other road, I dug up an old map showing that there is only one road that goes past both places: https://vanhatkartat.fi/#12.62/60.54756/22.62843)
 
Vixen said:
That is not the point being made. The point is, the ship's engineers were battling with some kind of problem on Deck 0 in the Engine Control Room, yet there is no mention of it in their official statements or in the JAIC Report, despite Sillaste telling the Dagens Nyheter they had been 'up to their knees' in water in the ECR.

Nothing was to get in the way of the 'bow visor fell off' story.
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They were doing their jobs, when the power failed their job was over, what else could they do?
You are the one introducing the 'battling' All they could do was monitor the engines and generators and make sure any
Every watertight compartment in a vessel needs a bilge pump or a pipe connected to a bilge pump.
In large vessels like the Estonia, pipes from every compartment connect to three or four bilge pumps in the main engineering space. Sometimes there are auxiliary pumps in compartments where direct piping isn't practical.

Bilge pumps operate automatically when water rises above a certain level and will keep pumping until water is either removed, power is cut or they become overwhelmed.

Engines and generators on a ship will cut off to protect themselves if the ship lists too far as the oil in their sumps will move to one side.
Once power is lost the pumps stop.

In 2019 Viking Sky lost power in a storm with 15-meter high waves. According to pilots on board, the weather was well within the operational capability of the ship.

Around 13:50 the ship suffered a loss of oil pressure, resulting in an automatic shutdown of all engines and she started drifting towards land. The alarms for low lubricant level did not trigger.
Anchors were dropped, and tugboats tried unsuccessfully to attach towlines to the ship.
Six of Norwegian SAR helicopters were sent to the scene and started to evacuate passengers
The crew of Viking Sky managed to restart one engine
Three of the four engines had been restarted during the night, evacuation was stopped and Viking Sky got under way.

It was determined that the oil levels in the engines while within specified levels were towards the lower limit.
When the ship started to roll the oil uncovered the sensors that stopped the engines. Warning lights never came on because the level never actually fell low enough to trigger them.

When a ship rolls and stays rolled the power will shut down and there is no way to get it back.
 
Vixen said:
I meant RCP being at the core of the Tory party as 'entrists', in the context of persons with hidden political agendas. I m not sure why you insisted in retrieving a sentence I deleted as needing correction. Perhaps explain why you think that is clever?
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Because you posted it without checking to see if it was true. IF it hadn't been called out you would have let it stand.
It is an example of your sloppy fact checking and research.
 
Vixen said:
Not necessarily, if the engineers on Deck 0 failed to report the ingress of water to the bridge, that Sillaste told a newspaper had them 'up to their knees in water'.

If there was a sudden unexpected sabotage attack there probably wasn't much the bridge could do in that short space of ten minutes of awareness.
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Exactly, the command team was woeful, It's the Chief Engineers job to keep the bridge informed of what is happening.
It is the Chief Engineers job to investigate strange sounds and bangs and water ingress.

Look at the example of HMS Nottingham, the Chief had a situation report on the bridge just 5 minutes after the grounding and a full damage report with flooding forecasts etc within 30. None involved crew were mustering on the deck in suits and life jackets just five minutes after the grounding ready to abandon ship if necessary and control teams were already starting to shore bulkheads and work on reducing flooding.

I don't expect any merchant crew to be trained to the level of a Royal Navy Destroyer crew, they are expecting to get damaged, it's what the ship is designed for. However, the response of everyone involved on the Estonia was bordering on criminal.
Sadly I suspect that they were no worse than a lot of ferries and small cargo ships working coastal trades.
 
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