The Future of Gun Control.

[Mephisto]

Id prevent accidental shooting by children who find a gun. Or protect you if the gun is taken by the perp. It could make a stolen gun useless.

Knida like a pass key. Who knows. the teck may reach a point when all you need a the ring, And it wouldnt make the fireing cumbersum
.

Accidental shooting by children can be most easily prevented by safety lessons and a good lock. As far as a good idea for home defense, it might work, but the homeowner would have to remember to store the bracelet or ring WITH the gun, which would negate the child safety factor.

Actually, I'd read that the technology was going in the direction of a micro-chip being implanted underneath the user's skin (usually on the right wrist). You can bet that drew some opposition from the militant, fundie gun owners.

Still, this isn't a viable alternative to a "one-gun family." Firearms are expensive and the "chip" safety feature would undoubtedly be expensive. Also the likelihood that a homeowner would be left defenseless for the time it took to don the bracelet (or ring) while he/she fumbled with the firearm, precious commodity when an attacker is closing the distance.

 

[Ranb]

A ring does not actually personalize a gun to the owner. It merely lets whoever has the ring shoot it. Using a transmitter (in the ring or on a belt) opens up the owner to abuse by authorities who may decide that they do not want any firearms usage by broadcasting some type of jamming signal.

A much better idea would be an implant that only allows authorized users as well as multiple users to use the firearm. But this may still be open to outside interference, which keeps the gun from being used. A personalized voice recognition system might be a good thing to use, although, one that is cheap, tough and reliable is years away.

Ranb

 

[Thanz]

Oh, you mean how cars having keys keeps people from stealing cars?

Well, exactly like that. From http://www.transalt.org/info/caralarms/11prevention.html

The best theft prevention device on the market is the passive immobilizer, now standard equipment on 98% of General Motors' light duty vehicles and nearly all of the new Fords. These immobilizers use a key that contains a computer chip which communicates with the car's engine. Without the proper key, the only way to steal the car is to tow it away. "Obviously, an immobilizer is more effective than an alarm," says GM spokesman Andrew Schreck. "An audible system is really just a noisemaker, but we can tie an immobilizer directly to the ignition system, to make sure it really is a deterrent. And it doesn't cost us any more than putting in an alarm."

The insurance statistics speak for themselves. When Ford added an immobilizer system to the Ford Mustang, theft rates dropped 77%.36 The next year, Ford put this system on the F-150 truck, and its insurance claims fell from 786 to 198. Average theft losses for the Nissan Maxima, once $14,148, plunged to $5,429 in the year an immobilizer was introduced. On average, immobilizers cut theft losses in half, at no extra cost to the consumer, and make audible alarms completely unnecessary.

 

[azazal]

The only thing I had seen on this was what Bikewer pointed out - tales of the gun on the history channel. They were showing it as a safety option for law enforcement, basiclly if an officer had their gun removed, it could not be used on them, and in the few moments of WTF while the perp was trying to figure out why the gun wasn't working, the officer could mace, baton, etc them and recover the gun.

As for civilian use, I'm with freakshow, what this does for home use is already done with a good set of locks or a safe and proper gun safety education for children. The other thing I'm leary of is it adds complexity to the equation, something else to break. Most guns now are very simple, few moving parts, very reliable, add in electronics or magents, you adding in more parts and more chances for breakdown. Would the cost of having this fixed out weight the cost of a new gun? If they want to make it 100% safe, then they need to set it up such that getting to and removing the componets is a real pain, basicly to try and deter the weekend tinkerer - a criminal or urlta pro-gun person will more then likely try to remove or sidestep this no matter what. But for the average owner, repair would most likely require a trip to a gunsmith, so you have the added cost of labor, new parts, etc.

 

[billydkid]

I figured this could use its own thread.

They make these "personalized" guns. Basically they only fire for the gun owner who wears a special ring.

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/issues/glossary/safety/personal/

"The owner of the personalized weapon wears an identifying magnetic ring or radio transmitter bracelet. When placed next to the grip of the handgun in the proper orientation, the ring or bracelet unlocks the trigger. The grip is customized to perfectly fit the owner's hand, allowing for easy alignment of the ring or bracelet."


I wonder what people would think of a law that made this tech mandatory on all new guns (when its feasably cost effective some time in the future.)

Do you think that would be a good law, like mandatory airbags. Or would you thik of it as a 2nd amendment violation?

Jeeze, I wonder if criminals could possibly think of a way around this? In as much as most gun crimes are committed with illegally owned guns, it is tough to see how more guns laws are going to have any effect at all on these sorts of crimes. Whether it violates the 2nd amendment or not, it will have no effect on the behavior of violent criminals. Again, and for the umpteenth time - gun laws only impact those who obey the law.

 

[Thanz]

Jeeze, I wonder if criminals could possibly think of a way around this? In as much as most gun crimes are committed with illegally owned guns, it is tough to see how more guns laws are going to have any effect at all on these sorts of crimes. Whether it violates the 2nd amendment or not, it will have no effect on the behavior of violent criminals. Again, and for the umpteenth time - gun laws only impact those who obey the law.

Really, I'm sick of this argument. Gun laws that have the effect of cutting down the supply of illegal weapons do affect the behaviour of criminals.

While this would never make it past the 2nd amendment zealots, this technology could be used to personalize a weapon to a lawful owner. Simply make it so that the gun is useless to anyone until the registered owner collects the decoder ring, which would be kept separate from the guns themselves. The ring is encoded when the gun is registered, and the owner is now responsible for it. It has the effect of cutting down on stolen guns - if the gun can't be used, it is useless.

 

[casebro]

From Thanz's link above, " On average, immobilizers cut theft losses in half, "

So, in a life and death situation, you want us to use a technology that is only 50% effective?

Damn, I'd hate to NEED a gun, only to find the batteries gone dead.

 

[Thanz]

From Thanz's link above, " On average, immobilizers cut theft losses in half, "

So, in a life and death situation, you want us to use a technology that is only 50% effective?

Damn, I'd hate to NEED a gun, only to find the batteries gone dead.

Where does it say that? I have had a car with this technology for about 8 years now (3 different vehicles) and the technology has not failed once. The 50% refers to theft losses. Are you saying that a measure that cuts the supply of illegal handguns in half is worthless?

 

[bob_kark]

Where does it say that? I have had a car with this technology for about 8 years now (3 different vehicles) and the technology has not failed once. The 50% refers to theft losses. Are you saying that a measure that cuts the supply of illegal handguns in half is worthless?

I still fail to see how this would cut the supply of illegal handguns in half. A car that can't be moved can't be taken to the criminal's evil lair and studied until the code is broken, unless you have a tow truck, which is a bit of an obvious attempt to steal the vehicle. A handgun on the other hand can be stolen and the code can be broken. Therefore, the gun can be used again.

 

[Mephisto]

Where does it say that? I have had a car with this technology for about 8 years now (3 different vehicles) and the technology has not failed once. The 50% refers to theft losses. Are you saying that a measure that cuts the supply of illegal handguns in half is worthless?

I'm sure the technology works, but I'm not sure it would work on the thousands upon thousands of untraceable guns out there already. Even IF the technology were implemented how could one ever be sure that even the existing LEGAL guns could use it. And why would current, legal, law-abiding gun owners pay to have the chips installed? Also, would one chip work for many weapons, or do you have to remember which ring goes with which gun?

There are two possibilities which should also be considered. To circumvent this new technology black market weapons will become very valuable which will naturally give rise to the violence associated with black-market weapons and those who seek them. The second possibility would be for the technologically-unscrupulous to immediately figure how to counter the system (likely shortly after its release) and the technology itself would be rendered useless before it was in common use.

And speaking of common use, how would that come about? For it to be effective it would have to be required on every single firearm. That would be like requiring every single vehicle owner to install (at the owner's expense) a particular alarm system for every single vehicle they have on the road. I don't think it's feasible.

 

[Stormraven]

As another has said, with regard to this, I'll consider it an option when - and only when - the police *and the military* convert wholesale to the design.

If they aren't on board with it, you can be sure they don't trust it to work in emergency situations. (And no, the fact that a couple of manufacturers are looking into the tech, with the idea of selling it to law enforcement, doesn't count. It counts only when it receives widespread use among law enforcement.) If they don't trust it to work in emergency situations, why should I?

 

[Thanz]

I still fail to see how this would cut the supply of illegal handguns in half. A car that can't be moved can't be taken to the criminal's evil lair and studied until the code is broken, unless you have a tow truck, which is a bit of an obvious attempt to steal the vehicle.

Is it really that obvious? When was the last time you saw a car being towed and thought to call the police because it was obviously being stolen?

A handgun on the other hand can be stolen and the code can be broken. Therefore, the gun can be used again.

How do you know the code can be broken? Who are these criminal masterminds in your world? You know nothing of the technology involved, yet baldly state that the code can be broken as easily as busting open a parking meter or something.

 

[Ranb]

New Jersey has passed a law which will/may result in only "smart" guns being sold to civilians in the state. Military and law enforcement are exempt, as well as guns sold for use in target competition.

The funny thing is, this law was first promoted as a tool to protect the police from getting shot by their own pistols, but when the police found out how unreliable the tech was, they said no way, so then it was pitched as a gun control measure.

The law also says the smart gun has to prevent unauthorized use; it does not say the pistol has to be able to fire when handled by the authorized user. This law can also be used as a means of denying civilians the chance to own new pistols, as the law will can go into effect as soon as the Attorney General has decided that suitable smart guns exist and more than one production model is available to be sold to the public. I wonder whom the lucky few will be who can own new pistols in New Jersey in the next several years.

http://www.lcav.org/states/newjersey.asp#Personalizedsmartguns
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2002/Bills/PL02/130_.HTM

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

.....How do you know the code can be broken? Who are these criminal masterminds in your world? You know nothing of the technology involved, yet baldly state that the code can be broken as easily as busting open a parking meter or something.

I think I am one of those people who can do it, and I am just a novice gunsmith. I'm quite certain I can remove the firing pin, sear, disconnect, hammer, trigger, mainspring and other parts in the grip that serve as safety features then replace them with modified or custom fabricated parts to make a "nonsmart" pistol. Of course, it might be much easier to buy a simple gun on the black market. It does not take a great deal of skill to start out with a pistol frame and make it into a functioning firearm. Making it into a reliable and very accurate gun does take much skill however.

Ranb

 

[azazal]

I also fail to see where this would do anything to curb zip-guns - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_gun In fact I can see where this would cause an increase in their use.

 

[bob_kark]

Is it really that obvious? When was the last time you saw a car being towed and thought to call the police because it was obviously being stolen?

I have a friend who used to work in repo. Its not as easy as you may think to tow someone's car without them noticing. A tow truck makes quite a bit of noise. Besides, I doubt a large percentage have been attempted to be stolen by tow truck.

How do you know the code can be broken? Who are these criminal masterminds in your world? You know nothing of the technology involved, yet baldly state that the code can be broken as easily as busting open a parking meter or something.

I may not know every detail of the device, but I do know a little bit about decryption. From the following website:

http://rfidanalysis.org/

To decrease this key-cracking time even furthur, we connected 16 FPGAs together at a total cost of under $3,500. Texas Instruments provided us with 5 DST tags whose keys we did not know. The 16-way parallel cracker was able to recover all 5 keys in well under 2 hours.

FPGA stands for field programmable gate array and DST stands for Digital Signature Transponder, which are used for vehicle immobilizers, electronic payments, and identification badges. I would assume that the bracelet would use a similar if not the same device as that is the current trend in wireless identification.

So, yes, the criminal who steals the gun may not be able to simply decypher the code on the gun. However when he sells the gun to a fence to score some crack, the fence can simply take it to an exprert who can then find the correct code.

 

[Tmy]

And speaking of common use, how would that come about? For it to be effective it would have to be required on every single firearm. That would be like requiring every single vehicle owner to install (at the owner's expense) a particular alarm system for every single vehicle they have on the road. I don't think it's feasible.

How many cars come with alarm stystems that have remotes??? ya'll are acting as if your run of the mill thug is equal to genius supervillian with code breaking tech. When was the last time your car alarm was hacked?

THis is the same principle. And if the tech means that black market regular guns would become more valuable, THEN GOOD! That will price out alot of these young gangbanging thugs that are resonsible for so many shootings.

 

[luchog]

Look at cell phones. Stealing one is pointless cause it can be rendered useless by the phone company.

Nope. Unlocking the phone is a trivial exercise, and I see several hundred examples a week that prove you completely wrong on this one.

 

[Tmy]

. Also the likelihood that a homeowner would be left defenseless for the time it took to don the bracelet (or ring) while he/she fumbled with the firearm, precious commodity when an attacker is closing the distance.

I was thinking that theyd keep the ring stored somewhere convienent in case of emergency. Like maybe.............their finger!

 

[luchog]

How do you know the code can be broken? Who are these criminal masterminds in your world? You know nothing of the technology involved, yet baldly state that the code can be broken as easily as busting open a parking meter or something.

It very likely won't be necessary to break the code. Bypassing the system entirely looks to be fairly trivial.