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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Marras said:
JAIC is not Helsingin Sanomat.

You said that Helsingin Sanomat reported it.

You are yet again inventing sources for your statements. This is the reason why no one believes you when you say that some source say something.

Because you either misremember things or, as I believe, blatantly lie when speaking about who writes what.



I am saying that the source that you gave did not say what you claimed it said.

And this is true. At this point it is almost a universal truth that if you say that a source says something, it doesn't.


And, as you perfectly well know, Piht's name is only on one handwritten note taped to a window. And if I remember correctly, that note didn't have his birthday in it but right now I can't be bothered to dig the photo of the note again to see if it was there.
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I quoted HS exactly as it was stated.


A hospital would not put the patients dob on a public list.
 
Vixen said:
Neither of them reflect my own views.

Stop trying to force other people's ideologies onto me.
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The only reason why you believe that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians is that you read it from Boleyn's web site.

You read it, liked it, and started to believe it.

And because you believe it, you believe also that there are lots of sources saying that.

There isn't.

There's only Boleyn.

Why do you believe an anti-semite conspiracy theorist?
 
Here_to_learn said:
And as usual you are careless with facts. Bengt Stenmar was not, and have as far as I know never been a minister.
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According to Hesari, he was:

Captain Pihti has been questioned by the Estonia Crash Investigation Commission, Bengt Erik Stenmark, head of security at the Swedish Maritime Government, said on Friday. However, the investigatory panel on Friday disputed Stenmark's information.
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HS 1.10.1994


Estonia-turman tutkimuskomissio on kuulustellut kapteeni Pihtia, kertoi Ruotsin merenkulkuhallituksen turvallisuuspäällikkö Bengt Erik Stenmark perjantaina. Tutkijalautakunta kuitenkin kiisti perjantaina Stenmarkin tiedot
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ibid original

OK, so he was head of maritime safety at the Swedish Waterways Ministry.
 
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Marras said:
The only reason why you believe that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians is that you read it from Boleyn's web site.

You read it, liked it, and started to believe it.

And because you believe it, you believe also that there are lots of sources saying that.

There isn't.

There's only Boleyn.

Why do you believe an anti-semite conspiracy theorist?
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That is a rather childish argument. Bollyn just happen to be a random quote from the internet in response to a poster. I believe it was from MV, which I had mistaken for MTV (a rather popular tv channel here with interminably long commercial breaks).
 
Marras said:
The only reason why you believe that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians is that you read it from Boleyn's web site.

You read it, liked it, and started to believe it.

And because you believe it, you believe also that there are lots of sources saying that.

There isn't.

There's only Boleyn.

Why do you believe an anti-semite conspiracy theorist?
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Well it's either as you describe above, or it's that Vixen is supping (with a short spoon) at the table of someone (or some website) which itself has incorporated Bollyn's nutjob CT misrepresentation. A sort of "bollocks aggregation" service, if you will....

(And the crank's name is Bollyn, not Boleyn - though it's an apt mistake to make, as it's abundantly clear that certain points of view lost their metaphorical heads a very long time ago)
 
Vixen said:
I quoted HS exactly as it was stated.
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You claimed that Helsingin Sanomat reported that 140 survivors had been treated in Finnish hospitals.

They never did that.

They wrote that there was a total of 140 survivors. They didn't claim that all of them had been brought to Finnish hospitals.

And HS also reported that other sources give different figures. (That Heiki Arike had said there were 136 survivors and that there is a name list in Tallinn with 149 survivors, from https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370653.html).

By the way, the list of survivors that was published in HS Friday 30 September is here: https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370645.html

The article says that there are 140 survivors but that the identities of two were not known on Thursday when Turku police gave the list to media. The name list contains 138 names.

You can check whether you can find Piht or other senior officers of Estonia from that list.
 
junkshop said:
I'm no expert, but Google translates

'Ruotsin merenkulkuhallituksen turvallisuuspäällikkö'

as

'Head of Safety at the Swedish Maritime Administration'

No ministers or ministries there.
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Google translates that correctly. No ministers or ministries there.

Edited to add: if it was a ministry, it would be "Merenkulkuministeriö" in Finnish.

Edited to add even more: Vixen's confusion this time is that the word "hallitus" by itself means "the government", "board of trustees", or "cabinet" and usually if it is used without any qualifications in media it means the government of the country consisting of the prime minister and all other ministers.

In a name of organization is means that it is a state organization in charge of some particular thing. Though, nowadays the word has been removed from many if not all such organizations. For example, the "Merenkulkuhallitus" of was renamed "Merenkulkulaitos" in 1998 (and then disbanded in 2009 when its official jobs were transferred to Liikennevirasto).
 
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Vixen said:
They were billeted adjacent to the Voronin family - it seems Piht might even have shared the same cabin - and an old sea captain b 1917. Plus they were near the life saving equipment. In addition, they were listed as survivors. Most of the people who got out safely were either crew or those on Deck 1 or the higher decks, such as the young adults sleeping outside the cafeteria on the promenade deck. Reuters confirmed Bengt Stenmark waterways transport minister stating Piht had been interviewed. The Evening Standard in London (Colin Andersson) and the Helsingin Sanomat reported that he had been rescued and that they were waiting to interview him, with the ES even claiming in the headline that jail may await the guilty.

Swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a Helsinki Hospital.

There were rumours he was seen going or being taken to the German Embassy.
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A said that B said that C said...

Are you perhaps now claiming that the London Evening Standard had secret agents embedded within the crew of the Estonia?

The repeating of rumours and speculation as they make their way through the international press does not get you closer to the truth, but further away.
 
Axxman300 said:
I suppose it's unfair, but this came after almost an hour of non-investigation of the report of water coming in at the bow on the car deck. I don't pretend to know how things are supposed to work on a ship, but my job requires that I monitor security cameras, and personally investigate any report of damage, no matter how trivial. My cameras are a thousand times better than the ones Estonia would have had in 1994, and I still can't rely on them alone to assess structural, plumbing, or other physical damage.

It's great they could get their survival suits on in the required time, and thankfully we have their testimony to shoot down conspiracy nonsense. I just don't understand why nobody physically went to the bow area of the car deck to look for themselves as soon as the report came in. Even if I'm not ordered to do so, if I'm on a ship then it's my butt too, so I'm going to take a look.
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It's usual for an engineer to do rounds of all machinery spaces, pump rooms etc at least once every hour.
upper deck rounds should also be done at least once an hour by a seaman on duty. In a storm upper decks may be off limits but the car deck should have been covered.

I think part of the problem was they were used to water coming in through the visor to some extent so it wasn't seen as a problem by anyone aboard.
When an unusual noise or increase in water ingress was noticed it should have been investigated by an engineer.

When Nottingham went aground the Chief Engineer had an initial sitrep for the captain within 5 minutes and a detailed report soon after.
 
Axxman300 said:
Makes sense. My failed point is that had they known sooner they could have made smarter decisions.
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Yes, the command team were woeful. They knew the ship already had water coming in the bow when it was rough, they should have shown a lot more concern.
 
Marras said:
You are yet again sending someone to a wild goose chase trying to find your non-existent sources.

Just like you did with your Times spies in Stalingrad thing.
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Or the Attorney General being a member of the workers revolutionary party.
 
Vixen said:
They were billeted adjacent to the Voronin family - it seems Piht might even have shared the same cabin - and an old sea captain b 1917. Plus they were near the life saving equipment. In addition, they were listed as survivors. Most of the people who got out safely were either crew or those on Deck 1 or the higher decks, such as the young adults sleeping outside the cafeteria on the promenade deck. Reuters confirmed Bengt Stenmark waterways transport minister stating Piht had been interviewed. The Evening Standard in London (Colin Andersson) and the Helsingin Sanomat reported that he had been rescued and that they were waiting to interview him, with the ES even claiming in the headline that jail may await the guilty.

Swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a Helsinki Hospital.

There were rumours he was seen going or being taken to the German Embassy.
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Now the Germans have him?
 
Vixen said:
The fire watch man, Silve Linde claims he was on the car deck by the bow when he as almost knocked to his feet by a loud bang and an enormous pitch. In his initial interview with a newspaper, DN I believe, he never mentioned seeing water, just hearing a bang, and during the course of his seven interviews - changing his story all the time - the lound bang became a tiny noise that could only be heard from about five metres away of the bow visor and that he had gone to the information desk on Deck 5 to ask the lady to unlock the car deck (which was locked during the journey) when let's face it, he already had access and was probably going to ask her to announce an alarm.

He was in a life raft even before Ainsalu got his Mayday out. Hopw do we know? Because he claims he looked at his watch.

Truth is, there never was any great amount of water on the car deck that was not normal for that vessel in rainy weather, since the bow visor leaked.

Linde, True, Sillaste and Kadak got out because they knew the lower deck was being flooded.


The story the JAIC and the shipping company wanted to stick to (who had an interest on the JAIC) was the bow visor being the prime site of the accident, with everything else shipshape and Bristol fashion.
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Anyone with any sense would have been in a raft before the Mayday was made. The ship had lost power and was turned on it's side by then.
 
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