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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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That is nonsense. Bollyn was simply quoting well-known Swedish investigative journalist Sven Anér, who is the person who acquired the receipts from Arlanda Airport, Stockholm, of the US Cargo plane which carried away nine unknown unnamed passengers on 29.9.1994 iirc, or thereabouts, the same plane owners that carted off the two Egyptians at the beck and call of warfaring Dubya Bush.

Sven Anér is best known for his tireless investigative journalism into the assassination of Olof Palme.

Aner reported on the CIA renditions. It's one of his hobby horses, AIUI. I doubt Aner said anything about enforced disappearance. Prove me wrong. Show me Bollyn didn't make that bit up.

ETA: There is a pattern here of you fetishizing single, uncorroborated sources for your claims.

If anything Bjorkman said had any merit, there would be engineers other than Bjorkman you could point to saying the same thing.

If Bollyn's enforced disappearance claim had any merit, there would be other sources you could point to independently offering the same legal assessment.
 
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Where did you get the information that the Estonia was carrying nuclear fuel rods?

AIUI the radioactive materials were retrieved from the nuclear fuel rods which were decommissioned at Paldiski.

This is as reported in two Russian newspapers. No doubt based on known smuggled items to the west during that era (see the CIA lists). Of course, the Russians will want to point away from themselves...
 
What does a 'typical pack' look like?
How did he take samples when he never dived on the wreck?

How would the explosives have blown the bow off when they were still there?

Did you not see the phrase, 'series...'?

IOW some went off the one seen in the video clip an apparent failure. If you recall, survivors heard a series of bangs (including Sillaste).
 
AIUI the radioactive materials were retrieved from the nuclear fuel rods which were decommissioned at Paldiski.

This is as reported in two Russian newspapers. No doubt based on known smuggled items to the west during that era (see the CIA lists). Of course, the Russians will want to point away from themselves...

We have yet to see anything in these threads that you understand properly.

And this does not come even close to answering the question that Captain_Swoop asked.
 
Did you not see the phrase, 'series...'?

IOW some went off the one seen in the video clip an apparent failure. If you recall, survivors heard a series of bangs (including Sillaste).

And yet again a series of words that go nowhere towards answering the question that was asked.
 
You’ll be able to provide a link, or reference, for Sven Anér reporting that that Egyptians were disappeared by the Swedish government, then.

It was Anér who was supplied with the attached cargo receipts. He is the investigative journalist who first strongly suspected that the senior crew having been listed as survivors had been removed by this method.

Sven Anér was the originator of that theory. He had insider knowledge because whistleblowers in high places trusted him and tipped him off.

The attached bills were paid by the US Embassy in Stockholm, it is reported.
 

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AIUI the radioactive materials were retrieved from the nuclear fuel rods which were decommissioned at Paldiski.

This is as reported in two Russian newspapers. No doubt based on known smuggled items to the west during that era ...

"No doubt"? That's a really weird thing to claim you have no doubt about.

What was it that you found so compelling about lurid tales of dangerous radionuclides being smuggled aboard the Estonia (as allegedly reported in two Russian newspapers but which I presume you have not read) which removed all doubt from your mind that this might just be anti-Western disinformation?
 
With sonar? Really?

But this sonar that's mysteriously malfunctioning. Where exactly was it located?

Was it on Estonia and MRCC somehow used remotely Estonia's sonar to scan for ships? In 1994?

Was it the sonar array of Utö coastal fortress? So the saboteurs somehow got into a Finnish army installation to knock the sonar off? Or was the Finnish coastal artillery in the plot and they turned the sonars off on purpose? The conspiracy that is not a conspiracy keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Or are you still confused on the difference between sonar and radar and which radar was on land and which on the ship?

As a side note, I never found out what the limits of the Finnish army passive sonar installations were during my army service (I did it on a different coastal fort roughly around the same time but never even visited the listening station). However, I will be greatly surprised if its listening range was 40 km during a storm.

Whoops. Soz, I meant radar. As you can see, from the excerpt of MRCC's police witness statement, the radar was not picking up Estonia as it should. In addition, Silja Europa also had problems but as it had a sophisticated system, Mäkela was able to magnify it to the maximum. IIRC Europa was apx 10km away.
 

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Already done. Now you show us that the OSC disagreed with their completely logical decision. If you can. Which you can't.

From what I can work out, six or seven were taken direct to Huddinge by Y74/Svensson and another eleven via Mariella, although I am pretty sure Mariella picked up at least 15/17 according to the JAIC (more according to Captn Jan-Tore Thörnroos in an interview 2004 IIRC). One survivor on a stretcher on Mariella had to be picked up by Helicopter X92 to be taken to Hanko for specialist care, according to JAIC. However, the Swedish government archives shows Huddinge took 14.
 
AIUI the radioactive materials were retrieved from the nuclear fuel rods which were decommissioned at Paldiski.

This is as reported in two Russian newspapers. No doubt based on known smuggled items to the west during that era (see the CIA lists). Of course, the Russians will want to point away from themselves...

OK so where did you get the information that nuclear fuel rods were being transported on the Estonia?
 
Whoops. Soz, I meant radar. As you can see, from the excerpt of MRCC's police witness statement, the radar was not picking up Estonia as it should. In addition, Silja Europa also had problems but as it had a sophisticated system, Mäkela was able to magnify it to the maximum. IIRC Europa was apx 10km away.

I'm no radar expert. (Nor sonar for that matter, though I do know the difference.) However it appears to me that that quotation describes their being unable to see the Estonia on their radar display until the range of their view was extended from 12 (km? nm?) to display 24 instead. It's not that they couldn't see Estonia "as they should" but rather that it was off the screen as it was further away and outside the area they were viewing. When they zoomed the view out (not "maginified it to the max") the Estonia appeared, but it was hard to pick out from the clutter which we have been told just earlier today is a typical effect of stormy conditions.

Doubtless if I misread the report someone will correct me.
 
Did you not see the phrase, 'series...'?

IOW some went off the one seen in the video clip an apparent failure. If you recall, survivors heard a series of bangs (including Sillaste).

OK so a part answer.

I will repeat the bits you missed

What does a 'typical pack' look like?
How did he take samples when he never dived on the wreck?

Further to the part answer you gave;

If some of the explosives went off, how have the others survived?

If they didn't go off, why did the visor come off?
 
See, Vixen: once again, you misunderstand and misrepresent the views of the majority of contributors to this thread. And I think it's pretty clear that the reason you do this is because it self-servingly shores up your own views - in other words, if you can (mis)characterise others' views as being motivated by improper reasoning or misplaced emotion, it gives you more comfort that your own contrary views are reasonable, well-founded and valid. Well: that categorically is not the case, I'm afraid.

The truth of the matter is this: for those of us who hold the view that the Estonia sank because its bow opening failed catastrophically (owing to poor design/maintenance and cumulative fatigue culminating in sequential failure of the locks and hinges of the bow visor), which resulted in huge volumes/mass of water ingress into the open vehicle deck (and from there, via gravity and internal openings, deeper down into the hull), causing such instability and loss of buoyancy as to result in capsize and sinking....

....we reach that conclusion not because of anything to do with any kind of conscious or subconscious refusal to believe that your suggested alternative is too heinous to consider. Nor because we've been lulled into a false conclusion by certain sections of the media. Nor, indeed, because we have any reason whatsoever to "want" to believe in the "bow visor" explanation or to disbelieve your whackjob "submarines and explosives" explanation.

No: we reach that conclusion because 1) that's where the evidence leads us; 2) the evidence in no way supports any other conclusion; 3) the conclusion is sound and robust in terms of the underlying physics; and 4) the logistical improbability of any kind of conspiracy-based explanation is beyond the realms of reasonable human experience.

You - in appealing to the logical fallacy of 'speaking for the crowd' - have never read the JAIC report and know next to nothing about the issue, yet you feel bold enough to endorse the coffee table bow visor view.

No doubt, by the same criteria, all of those Hillsborough survivors and familes of the dead are similar 'whackjobs' and if only they just accepted the Hillsborough Report and the SUN newspaper description of the victims as being a bunch of thieving scousers picking the pockets of the crushed and trampled and expecting to get in to a match for free. The official version is correct, even though you haven't actually read it, analysed or appraised it.

Place your bets with Honest John's here - it is all random probability - so lay down your own odds!
 
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