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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Bollyn was simply quoting well-known Swedish investigative journalist Sven Anér...

Distraction. It is a matter of record that the Egyptians were flown out of Sweden on a privately owned plane that has since been implicated in extraordinary rendition claims against the CIA. That is still not evidence that Sweden committed the crime Bollyn accuses them of, which you have mindlessly copied.
 
I never did understand what enjoyment people get heckling from the back of the hall.

We're the ones who are qualified to examine this evidence. You're the lay person heckling from the back of the hall.

Royal Navy military explosives expert Brian Braidwood and Fellowes of the Naval Academy concluded there was almost certainly some plastic explosive devices placed at strategic positions along the sides near the locks.

Asked and answered. The evidence allegedly of explosives is also consistent with cyclic deformation, which is an ordinary and expected occurrence for the components in question.

Prof. Ida Westermann of Norway, concludes that the metal sample she took from the bow visor shows signs of deformation consistent with extreme conditions.

Misleading. When asked specifically to confirm explosives, Prof. Westermann repeatedly demurred.

There is no evidence of explosives as forensic engineering would consider it.
 
MRCC scan the area constantly for ships in the region.

With sonar? Really?

But this sonar that's mysteriously malfunctioning. Where exactly was it located?

Was it on Estonia and MRCC somehow used remotely Estonia's sonar to scan for ships? In 1994?

Was it the sonar array of Utö coastal fortress? So the saboteurs somehow got into a Finnish army installation to knock the sonar off? Or was the Finnish coastal artillery in the plot and they turned the sonars off on purpose? The conspiracy that is not a conspiracy keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Or are you still confused on the difference between sonar and radar and which radar was on land and which on the ship?

As a side note, I never found out what the limits of the Finnish army passive sonar installations were during my army service (I did it on a different coastal fort roughly around the same time but never even visited the listening station). However, I will be greatly surprised if its listening range was 40 km during a storm.
 
Explain why seven survivors were taken straight to Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, contrary to OSC instructions?

Already done. Now you show us that the OSC disagreed with their completely logical decision. If you can. Which you can't.
 
In a following clip, the items have mysteriously been removed.

Braidwood worked with explosives. He recognised a typical pack when he saw one. He took samples and had them independently tested by metallurgists.

He saw a generic packet on a video. He did not obtain samples of the item he only saw on a video, nor send such for analysis. Don't be ridiculous.
 
As I said IMV the persons responsible were determined the vessel's journey would terminate there and then. If you recall the abortive USS Cole terrorist attempt, with jihadist strapped to the gills in suicide vests and a boat loaded with 700kg of explosives: all they managed was a large hole in the side. Whoever brought down that ship, planned it meticulously, had know how to make dang sure it would sink, with no chance of rescue or evacuation.

People resist this idea because they think, no-one could be so wicked, so they comfort themselves that it was an accident because it feels better. But that does not replace the truth.


See, Vixen: once again, you misunderstand and misrepresent the views of the majority of contributors to this thread. And I think it's pretty clear that the reason you do this is because it self-servingly shores up your own views - in other words, if you can (mis)characterise others' views as being motivated by improper reasoning or misplaced emotion, it gives you more comfort that your own contrary views are reasonable, well-founded and valid. Well: that categorically is not the case, I'm afraid.

The truth of the matter is this: for those of us who hold the view that the Estonia sank because its bow opening failed catastrophically (owing to poor design/maintenance and cumulative fatigue culminating in sequential failure of the locks and hinges of the bow visor), which resulted in huge volumes/mass of water ingress into the open vehicle deck (and from there, via gravity and internal openings, deeper down into the hull), causing such instability and loss of buoyancy as to result in capsize and sinking....

....we reach that conclusion not because of anything to do with any kind of conscious or subconscious refusal to believe that your suggested alternative is too heinous to consider. Nor because we've been lulled into a false conclusion by certain sections of the media. Nor, indeed, because we have any reason whatsoever to "want" to believe in the "bow visor" explanation or to disbelieve your whackjob "submarines and explosives" explanation.

No: we reach that conclusion because 1) that's where the evidence leads us; 2) the evidence in no way supports any other conclusion; 3) the conclusion is sound and robust in terms of the underlying physics; and 4) the logistical improbability of any kind of conspiracy-based explanation is beyond the realms of reasonable human experience.
 
Explain why seven survivors were taken straight to Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, contrary to OSC instructions?

Finnish hospitals, as reported by the Hesari, treated in all 140 survivors, this figure being brought down to 138 and then 137. It reported two rescued from Utö were in 'poor condition' and one was 'unconscious', so that might account for that.

HS Se oli taistelua elämästä" Sairaaloihin tuotiin alijäähtyneitä ja järkyttyneitä pelastuneita


Rimmi Riitta

29.9.1994 2:00

Note how the Finnish hospitals made sure it took the personal details of each patient. So 140 survivors in Finland (less one or two who subsequently died or 'disappeared') and seven at Huddginge.

= 147.

Please explain how can those eleven or twelve 'survivors' be listed as survivors by various hospitals but then be removed from the list?


Jeeeez. How many times, Vixen, do you need to be told that the newspaper reports from the day after the disaster cannot be taken to be reliable or accurate?

Seriously: how many times?
 
People resist this idea because they think, no-one could be so wicked, so they comfort themselves that it was an accident because it feels better. But that does not replace the truth.
The only participant in this thread who's trying to replace the the truth is you. Your version of truth isn't even self consistent, let alone supported by anything factual.
 
Finnish hospitals, as reported by the Hesari, treated in all 140 survivors, this figure being brought down to 138 and then 137. It reported two rescued from Utö were in 'poor condition' and one was 'unconscious', so that might account for that.

By the way, "Hesari" by which Vixen means "Helsingin Sanomat" the newspaper didn't report that.

Instead, the article "Merestä löytynyt 77 kuollutta Laivat ja helikopterit jatkoivat etsintöjä pimeän tuloon saakka", 30 September 1994 (https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370651.html) writes:
Keskiviikkona kerrottiin 138 pelastuneesta, mutta torstaina pelastuneiden lukumäärä nousi 140:een. Sekaannus johtui siitä, että kahden pelastuneen nimiä ei ollut laivan matkustajalistoissa.

[snip]

Suomen sairaaloissa on ollut kaikkiaan 63 pelastettua, heistä Turun yliopistollisessa keskussairaalassa 37, Maarianhaminan sairaalassa kahdeksan, Paraisten terveyskeskuksessa neljä, Hangon terveyskeskuksessa kahdeksan ja Tammisaaren aluesairaalassa viisi potilasta.

My translation:

"On Wednesday it was reported that 138 people survived but on Thursday the figure increased to 140. The confusion was caused by the fact that names of two survivors were not in the passenger lists of the ship. [snip]

A total of 63 rescuees have been in Finnish hospitals, 37 of them in Turku university hospital, eight in Marienhamn hospital, four in Parainen health center, eight in Hanko health center and five in Tammisaari disctrict hospital."

The article doesn't say who reported the 138 survivors on Wednesday but it wasn't Helsingin Sanomat as it is a morning paper and the sinking is not mentioned at all as the paper had been already printed when the news of the sinking broke out

Note how the Finnish hospitals made sure it took the personal details of each patient.

Note also how the in that paragraph of the text the reporter is writing about the survivors who were admitted into wards of Turku University Hospital. So people who had to remain in hospital. The writer uses the expression "osastolle siirtäminen" which means being transferred to a ward. She is not issuing a universal statement that applies to all survivors who were in Finland at any time.
 
See, Vixen: once again, you misunderstand and misrepresent the views of the majority of contributors to this thread. And I think it's pretty clear that the reason you do this is because it self-servingly shores up your own views - in other words, if you can (mis)characterise others' views as being motivated by improper reasoning or misplaced emotion, it gives you more comfort that your own contrary views are reasonable, well-founded and valid. Well: that categorically is not the case, I'm afraid.

The truth of the matter is this: for those of us who hold the view that the Estonia sank because its bow opening failed catastrophically (owing to poor design/maintenance and cumulative fatigue culminating in sequential failure of the locks and hinges of the bow visor), which resulted in huge volumes/mass of water ingress into the open vehicle deck (and from there, via gravity and internal openings, deeper down into the hull), causing such instability and loss of buoyancy as to result in capsize and sinking....

....we reach that conclusion not because of anything to do with any kind of conscious or subconscious refusal to believe that your suggested alternative is too heinous to consider. Nor because we've been lulled into a false conclusion by certain sections of the media. Nor, indeed, because we have any reason whatsoever to "want" to believe in the "bow visor" explanation or to disbelieve your whackjob "submarines and explosives" explanation.

No: we reach that conclusion because 1) that's where the evidence leads us; 2) the evidence in no way supports any other conclusion; 3) the conclusion is sound and robust in terms of the underlying physics; and 4) the logistical improbability of any kind of conspiracy-based explanation is beyond the realms of reasonable human experience.

Good summary.

Any *wanting to believe* here is purely Vixen's. This is amply evidenced by Vixen's persistent use of such terms as if, seems, possibly, for some reason, my understanding, and the like. The only "evidence" Vixen has ever offered consists of other peoples' opinions as posted on dubious websites or in newspaper snippets. As a reporter of facts Vixen has been a failure since her very first post on the sinking. Vixen has convinced no one (not even our other resident forum CTists have offered any support). The whole world, at least those who are interested, knows, based on scientific and engineering evidence, exactly how and why the Estonia sank.
 
By the way, "Hesari" by which Vixen means "Helsingin Sanomat" the newspaper didn't report that ...

It's a wearying aspect of this interminable thread that, whenever Vixen tell us what some newspaper said, one's first reaction has to be doubt that they ever said any such thing.

Not only does Vixen persist on treating early newspaper reports as if they were gospel truth, she doesn't even appear to be quoting the actual newspaper articles she claims to be; she's either paraphrasing badly or quoting some other source's version of the story.
 
Distraction. It is a matter of record that the Egyptians were flown out of Sweden on a privately owned plane that has since been implicated in extraordinary rendition claims against the CIA. That is still not evidence that Sweden committed the crime Bollyn accuses them of, which you have mindlessly copied.

I don't have a link at the moment, but I've googled Aner. He notes the rendition. In the bits I've seen, he talks about the CIA rendition, but nothing about enforced disappearance nor the relevant Rome Statute. So I'm not convinced that Bollyn isn't actually making that bit up.

Could be wrong, though. I'm sure Aner's written plenty of other stuff. Maybe it's in there.
 
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