Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[LondonJohn]

Perhaps try removing all of your trite platitudes and well-worn clichés and see whether there are any nuggets of wisdom in there at all?

Not one soupçon as far as I can discern.

Uhmmmm..... come again?

 

[Vixen]

You avoided the question again
So how did it sink?
What caused it?

Given the sheer military precision of the sinking: telecommunications, radio, sonar, all down, EPIRB's deactivated/removed, the timing at Swedish midnight of the series of explosions heard and collision felt by survivors, the removal of the senior crew who - unlike the engine room guys - would know exactly what happened, an attack on at least two fronts - the bow and the starboard, the lack of time for a proper Mayday, zero opportunity for passenger evacuation, zero opportunity to launch lifeboats, the immediate sinking instead of floating upside down or semi-submerged, the exaggeration of the the stormy weather, the apparent apathy by the authorities in bringing anyone to justice, the immediate cover up from day one blaming the bow visor (which could have broken off for a hundred and one different reasons, and could be an effect not a cause): all of this adds up to a military exercise and a 'classified' label as a result thereof.

The Herald of Free Enterprise was a VERY handy 'damage limitation' message sent out on Day One by Bildt/Lehtola* newly appointed JAIC spokesman, so that the press could go into a frenzy about 'the safety of ro-ros': perfect reputation management and crisis management.

* Lehtola was by no means stupid or deceitful he will have seen it as diplomacy, an honourable deceit, it being highly classified stuff.

 

[Vixen]

I provided a link to where the material appears on Bollyn's own web site. The fact that you chose not to follow the link seems to indicate that either 1) you aren't interested in the truth about Bollyn's views, 2) you don't want to know the truth about Bollyn's views, or 3) you already know or suspect the truth about Bollyn's views, but are hoping to maintain a fig leaf of deniability by pleading ignorance.




If it's so transparently obvious even to a layman that the building shouldn't have collapsed, then kindly explain why structural engineers in Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba haven't blown the whistle. What a great opportunity to damage American prestige and credibility that would be.




As noted, we've been over this many times already.




That's absolutely true, but "what is plain to see" is not what you think it is.




The excerpt I posted has little directly to do with Bollyn's theories about who staged the September 11 attacks. It's mainly general anti-Semitic bilge, and you initially professed mortification at the views expressed. But now you're pretending that he was simply accusing Israel of being behind the September 11 attacks.

Here again is my post, including the link to his website. Kindly follow the link this time, or else stipulate that the quote is genuine and not taken out of context.




Additionally, I earlier posted an excerpt from an ADL article describing Bollyn's antisemitism, but you either didn't notice or simply ignored the source.




No one said there was anything wrong per se with blogging about the Estonia.




As with Björkman, it goes to (extreme lack of) credibility.




I read enough of it to know he's a rabid anti-Semite; see above.




Back to the old "you don't need to be an expert" canard, I see.

Surely he is talking about 'an extensive Zionist criminal network', in the same way as someone talking about 'an extensive Mafia criminal network', or 'an extensive Mexican criminal drug cartel' is not a slur on all Jews, Italians/Albanians or Mexicans, just the organised criminal elements?

 

[JayUtah]

Given the...

The request was for you to tell us what you think caused the damage that sank the ship. It was not for you simply to repeat the same vague conspiratorial twaddle you've been peddling since Page One.

 

[Vixen]

WHAT????????

Nobody's "pretending it is OK".

The point here is that you still (astonishingly, even for you) don't know what is meant by the State "disappearing" people.

Because Sweden did not "disappear" those servicemen. Just as Sweden did not "disappear" those two Egyptians.

You don't know what you're talking about.

The constant disclaimer at the end of your posts is bizarre. Is that your superego (inner voice) speaking there, cancelling out what you just said?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Given the sheer military precision of the sinking: telecommunications, radio, sonar, all down, EPIRB's deactivated/removed, the timing at Swedish midnight of the series of explosions heard and collision felt by survivors, the removal of the senior crew who - unlike the engine room guys - would know exactly what happened, an attack on at least two fronts - the bow and the starboard, the lack of time for a proper Mayday, zero opportunity for passenger evacuation, zero opportunity to launch lifeboats, the immediate sinking instead of floating upside down or semi-submerged, the exaggeration of the the stormy weather, the apparent apathy by the authorities in bringing anyone to justice, the immediate cover up from day one blaming the bow visor (which could have broken off for a hundred and one different reasons, and could be an effect not a cause): all of this adds up to a military exercise and a 'classified' label as a result thereof.

The Herald of Free Enterprise was a VERY handy 'damage limitation' message sent out on Day One by Bildt/Lehtola* newly appointed JAIC spokesman, so that the press could go into a frenzy about 'the safety of ro-ros': perfect reputation management and crisis management.

* Lehtola was by no means stupid or deceitful he will have seen it as diplomacy, an honourable deceit, it being highly classified stuff.

So what happened?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Given the sheer military precision of the sinking: telecommunications, radio, sonar, all down, EPIRB's deactivated/removed, the timing at Swedish midnight of the series of explosions heard and collision felt by survivors, the removal of the senior crew who - unlike the engine room guys - would know exactly what happened, an attack on at least two fronts - the bow and the starboard, the lack of time for a proper Mayday, zero opportunity for passenger evacuation, zero opportunity to launch lifeboats, the immediate sinking instead of floating upside down or semi-submerged, the exaggeration of the the stormy weather, the apparent apathy by the authorities in bringing anyone to justice, the immediate cover up from day one blaming the bow visor (which could have broken off for a hundred and one different reasons, and could be an effect not a cause): all of this adds up to a military exercise and a 'classified' label as a result thereof.

The Herald of Free Enterprise was a VERY handy 'damage limitation' message sent out on Day One by Bildt/Lehtola* newly appointed JAIC spokesman, so that the press could go into a frenzy about 'the safety of ro-ros': perfect reputation management and crisis management.

* Lehtola was by no means stupid or deceitful he will have seen it as diplomacy, an honourable deceit, it being highly classified stuff.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[LondonJohn]

The constant disclaimer at the end of your posts is bizarre. Is that your superego (inner voice) speaking there, cancelling out what you just said?

Ah no, let me explain it in terms you might understand:

I write that you don't know what you're talking about...

...because...

...you don't know what you're talking about.


Hope that helps!

 

[Vixen]

Oh FYI, I'm very confident that I know what happened, and why. That's because I understand the relevant science sufficiently; and because I am prepared to countenance & assimilate the views of people who a) are more educated and experienced that I am in certain important aspects of the matter, and b) have the authority and credibility to give probative weight to their opinions.

Unlike you.

LOL. You doff your cap and tugs your forelock to them what knows better.

"I'll just go and look at the drainage in the lower fields, Sir'.

 

[Andy_Ross]

LOL. You doff your cap and tugs your forelock to them what knows better.

"I'll just go and look at the drainage in the lower fields, Sir'.

Should we just make **** up like you do?

 

[Vixen]

The request was for you to tell us what you think caused the damage that sank the ship. It was not for you simply to repeat the same vague conspiratorial twaddle you've been peddling since Page One.

That would be explosives at the bow and a submarine, or similar, hitting the starboard.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Hahaha

Back to the submarine?

 

[Steve]

That would be explosives at the bow and a submarine, or similar, hitting the starboard.

And which of these caused the damage that resulted in the sinking?

Hint: you have stated many times that the loss of the bow would not allow seawater to enter in sufficient quantities to sink the ship.

 

[JayUtah]

That would be explosives at the bow and a submarine, or similar, hitting the starboard.

So back to Page One, then.

 

[Andy_Ross]

And which of these caused the damage that resulted in the sinking?

Hint: you have stated many times that the loss of the bow would not allow seawater to enter in sufficient quantities to sink the ship.

Also the damage visible on the hull is above the water line

 

[SpitfireIX]

Surely he is talking about 'an extensive Zionist criminal network', in the same way as someone talking about 'an extensive Mafia criminal network', or 'an extensive Mexican criminal drug cartel' is not a slur on all Jews, Italians/Albanians or Mexicans, just the organised criminal elements?

No, he's not, and no reasonable reading of the excerpt supports that interpretation. You've simply latched on to the phrase "extensive Zionist criminal network" so you can pretend that he's not smearing all Jews. Tell us, Vixen, how does the following paragraph relate to an alleged Jewish Mafia?

Aware of the increasing prevalence and dominance of Zionist Jews in the political, financial, and academic sectors, I came to the conclusion that I was living in Jewish times. As an American raised with traditional Christian values, I realized that the culture I had grown up in was under attack and being reduced to a sub-culture. Through the Jewish-controlled media, a distinctly foreign and anti-Christian culture of pornography, perversion, and violence was being pushed. The producers of this "new culture" were primarily Jews of Eastern European origin. Through their control of the mass media, film, radio, and television networks, a diet of perverse entertainment and un-American values was being force-fed to the unsuspecting American population.​

Also, kindly explain why Bollyn put the word Holocaust in quotation marks.

Finally, please answer the question you ignored, namely, if it's so obvious even to a layman that WTC 7 shouldn't have collapsed, then why aren't structural engineers in Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba shouting it from the housetops?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Stop avoiding the issue. The DC-3 crew members' families could have been told their own were missing, presumed dead. A relative of mine is still missing from the Continuation War. The family has been told he was kidnapped and has never been seen again. People are now searching Karelia for missing soldiers. All dead soldiers were brought home and properly buried ASAP.

Stop pretending it is OK to not tell families the fate of their loved ones and to not bother bringing them home to rest.

There is no issue to avoid. As others have explained, the problem with your appeal to this example is that it is not on point.

You still haven't found any non-Bollyn sources for the claim that the Egyptians were subjected to enforced disappearance, have you? Bollyn remains your sole source for that claim, and you continue to believe him without corroboration.

 

[Axxman300]

Given the sheer military precision of the sinking:

...You've obviously never served in anybody's military...

telecommunications, radio, sonar, all down,

Nope. Been debunked numerous times already.

EPIRB's deactivated/removed,

Nope. BS, debunked at least 100 times already.

the timing at Swedish midnight of the series of explosions heard and collision felt by survivors

No explosions, just the bow visor failing in heavy seas it was not designed for.

,

the removal of the senior crew who - unlike the engine room guys - would know exactly what happened, an attack on at least two fronts

I believe they're still on the ship today. And the bridge crew is usually the last to know, and in this case, literally because they couldn't see the bow.

the bow and the starboard

Whut?

, the lack of time for a proper Mayday,

They got one off. They called it in too late in the game, that's all.

zero opportunity for passenger evacuation

Fault of the command element for not doing proper damage control assessment. You might want to look into at what point the internal staircases would have become unpassable sometime.

, zero opportunity to launch lifeboats,

Command waited too long to abandon ship.

the immediate sinking instead of floating upside down or semi-submerged,

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....just stop with this one.

the exaggeration of the the stormy weather,

You mean the exaggerated stormy weather that had witnesses reporting waves breaking over the bow of Estonia?

the apparent apathy by the authorities in bringing anyone to justice

The captain went down with the ship, and God has a really great lawyer.

,

the immediate cover up from day one blaming the bow visor (which could have broken off for a hundred and one different reasons, and could be an effect not a cause):

To be clear, the bow visor could have broken off for a hundred different reasons, but heavy seas at flank speed isn't one of them. And again, it wasn't from "day one", as there is no record of such a statement.

all of this adds up to a military exercise and a 'classified' label as a result thereof.

Whose military? Why?

The Herald of Free Enterprise was a VERY handy 'damage limitation' message sent out on Day One by Bildt/Lehtola* newly appointed JAIC spokesman, so that the press could go into a frenzy about 'the safety of ro-ros': perfect reputation management and crisis management.

Again, day one?

And once became clear the visor was the cause of the sinking, why wouldn't one look into the safety of Ro-Ro ferries (considering their history).?

You remain very bad at this.

 

[abaddon]

Wow. Full throttle fringe reset.

I suppose it was bound to happen eventually.

 

[Marras]

You seem to have the belief that give something a comfortable name and the thing goes away. For example, let's call what is known colloquially as the 'disappeared' and rename them 'deported', 'repatriated' or 'extradited', or in the case of the missing Estonian crew members, 'They are dead <shrug> who cares?' then that is that. End of.

For a further remainder: the only people that colloquially use the term "disappeared" for the thing that happened to the Egyptians are you and an anti-semite conspiracy theorist. No one else does that.

This one really baffling argument from you.

What happened to Egyptians has nothing to do with Estonia. It's clear that whatevet happend to the missing Estonians (narrator: they died in the sinking), it wasn't the same thing that happened to the Egyptians.

Still you are willing to hitch your horse to his wagon even though it makes you look really bad.