• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
If you believe it was 'caused by a fire from nearby burning debris' or that Estonia suddenly sank 'because of a wave', that is your prerogative. The thinkers amongst us can see what is plain to see.
Click to expand...

So what do you think is plain to see?
 
Vixen said:
It would be their fault (vicarious liability) if they were smuggling Russian/Soviet state secrets on a passenger ferry, which had a normal capacity of 70% Swedish citizens on any given trip.

No way did the ship sink in half an hour 'because a wave knocked off the bow visor'.
Click to expand...

You are right. There is a detailed report with extensive supporting documentation that shows what happened.
You should read it sometime.
 
Vixen said:
Why should I? It was merely an example of the many who believed Sweden had effectively 'disappeared' the two Egyptians in 2001.
Click to expand...

They didn't disappear, they were returned to Egypt so what people believed was wrong.
That's why you shouldn't rely on belief.
 
Vixen said:
You are surely forgetting the following, whose fates were unknown between 1952 and 1990. For forty-eight years they were 'disappeared', with their families, friends, neighbours, work colleagues et al having absolutely no idea what had happened to them.

Wiki


In fact, these guys, whose bodies were finally located and recovered just off the coast of Gotland (and nowhere near Russian territory as had been suggested) and they received their Gold Medals of Merit with Sword, nine years after Ensign Kenneth Svensson.

Then there are the presumed missing twelve Estonians.

Throw in the two Egyptians in 2001, and you can see that Sweden does have a fall back policy of disappearing people in the name of 'classified information'. Even when it is by dint of a foreign power (Clinton, Bush).
Click to expand...

The aircrew were murdered by the Russians. Sweden didn't 'disappear' them.
 
Vixen said:
The Swedish Defence Forces Intelligence heard it as it happened! It knew roughly the location the plane had come down. They knew all along the men were almost certainly dead (given it was one lone Soviet MIG, with no rescue back up) yet they let the families think they had no idea what had happened to the men: perhaps they had been escorted to Russian territory and were now in a gulag, was the hope kept alive by the men's own and encouraged by the state. All along it knew they were dead yet let the families suffer false hope. It was Russia that actually declassified the information in 1990, not Sweden. It was only then it took action to recover the aircraft and the bodies, then dragged its heels with the Gold Medals of Merit with Sword.
Click to expand...

War is hell.

In fact there are still many thousands of servicemen who are still officially missing from lots of wars.
 
Vixen said:
In any case, whatever, Bollyn's political slant, his reference to 'disappeared Egyptians' was sourced from a Swedish investigative journalist called Sven Anér, so can hardly claim to have copyright to it.
Click to expand...
No. It may be that some Swedish journalist reported it, but that is not a primary source. The primary source is Bollyn's own claims. And those are particularly nutty claims.

Let's have a look at Bollyn's actual 911 claims.

911, according to him, was arranged by the jooooooos as a false flag to provoke the US to attack the arabs. Or muslims. Or whoever.

And please don't pretend he is not a real person. We know he is a real wingnut. He may have some other online identities that are fake for all I know and I suspect so. I could research it, but I don't care about bollyn's nonsense.

But you do for reasons you fail to explain. Why are you so convinced that Bollyn is in any way trustworthy? For me he has hurled an incredible amount of flat out lies. At that point, it doesn't even matter. He, whoever he might be, matters not. It could be you for all I know. Or me, I suppose.

The problem is that you can furnish no support for your claims and I have not made any. Apart from those that are most obviously true. But you even deny those too.
 
Vixen said:
It would be their fault (vicarious liability) if they were smuggling Russian/Soviet state secrets on a passenger ferry, which had a normal capacity of 70% Swedish citizens on any given trip.

No way did the ship sink in half an hour 'because a wave knocked off the bow visor'.
Click to expand...


LOL
Your continuing ignorance of a) what actually happened to culminate in the bow visor detaching (hint: it was an awful lot more than "a wave"), and b) how & why a RORO ship can sink very quickly indeed once its bow opening is catastrophically compromised....

...is well noted.

You perhaps ought to at least try to educate yourself on these two matters before making any more of these risible (and wholly incorrect) assertions. Just a suggestion.
 
Vixen said:
I am not 100% sure that being sceptical of the 9/11 'official reason' makes a person an 'anti-Semite'. Just because Bollyn believes it was a Zionist-backed plot doesn't make it 'anti-Semitic' in itself. The red flag is that he believes there is a Zionist plot to flood Christian democratic countries with pornography to undermine them, according to a post SpitfireX posted. That is assuming the excerpt is authentic and in context.
Click to expand...


Hahaha still trying to find ways to 1) lessen/minimise the de-platforming of Bollyn and 2) absolve yourself of blame wrt using Bollyn to support your crackpot CTs, eh Vixen?
 
Vixen said:
You will agree there is a big difference between someone setting out to spread disinformation and someone genuinely researching the situation?

Fact is, there exists both.
Click to expand...


In principle, yes (of course).

But in practice - specifically in this instance - not at all.
 
Vixen said:
No. SpitfireX claimed the extract was by Bollyn. I have no idea whether or not it was in context or a genuine extract.
Click to expand...


But it's extremely easy for anyone - even you - to do the most cursory of investigations in order to find out.

Why did you not do that? Why, instead, are you trying to weasel out of it via your handwaving (and entirely unsubstantiated) doubt over Bollyn's true witterings and their true context?


(The irony, of course, is that others in this thread are, by way of the most cursory of investigations, riding a coach and horses through your own ludicrous claims and your own presentation of laughably unreliable "sources"....)
 
Marras said:
The only person in addition to you that believes that the Egyptians were disappeared by Sweden is an anti-semite conspiracy theorist.

What have I told you about parroting arguments by nasty people? Well, when you do that, people start to believe that you are one of the nasty people, too.
Click to expand...

Perhaps try looking at the issue and not the person.
 
JayUtah said:
And you didn't care to find out. That's the ongoing problem.



But you do need a background in structural engineering to know such things, which you do not have. This is what makes it difficult to take you seriously. You literally believe that what little you may know about a very complicated subject is enough to render an opinion about it that others are bound to respect. Do you ever consider the possibility that other people might be smarter than you?



What a person believes is not so important to me as why he believes it. I have beliefs about the things you mention because they happen to arise from the licensed field I've dedicated my life to learning and practicing. It takes years of education, years of apprenticeship, and a dedication to ongoing learning, adjudication, and practice.

You seem to believe things because you want to pretend you're smart, and conspiracy theories give you a shortcut to that emotional payoff.



You're not a thinker. You can't demonstrate having thought about anything you've posted here. All you can demonstrate is your willingness to gullibly parrot conspiracy theorists and other nutjobs and suggest that others think you clever and insightful for doing so.

The rest of us, who have actually learned the subjects you're playing with, are trying to teach you, but you have zero interest in learning. No, you're not some savant magically endowed with the ability to see through obfuscation. You're just a typical conspiracy theorist with delusions of grandeur.

The rest of your post is yet another attempt to apologize for Christopher Bollyn. If you want to make that bed you'll have to lay in it yourself. The man has no credibility with me, but if you want to keep citing him as a source, prepare to be laughed at.
Click to expand...

Unlike you, I don't trot out meaningless phrases such as 'nutjobs'; and try to pass it off as reasoned debate.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
You are right. There is a detailed report with extensive supporting documentation that shows what happened.
You should read it sometime.
Click to expand...

Mindless acceptance of a thing is passable in the tabloids but is it apposite in a debate? Is that really the height of your perspicacity?

"I know it's true. It says so here.'
 
Vixen said:
Unlike you, I don't trot out meaningless phrases such as 'nutjobs'; and try to pass it off as reasoned debate.
Click to expand...

It isn't meaningless, and it accurately describes the people you're trying to pass off as your sources. What isn't debate is a one-sentence brush-off to a post that thoroughly addressed all the points raised in the quoted sections.

Nobody is fooled into believing you're the high-minded, incisive thinker you seem to want others to see you as. All you've done is to peruse the dregs of the internet.
 
Last edited:
Captain_Swoop said:
War is hell.

In fact there are still many thousands of servicemen who are still officially missing from lots of wars.
Click to expand...

Stop avoiding the issue. The DC-3 crew members' families could have been told their own were missing, presumed dead. A relative of mine is still missing from the Continuation War. The family has been told he was kidnapped and has never been seen again. People are now searching Karelia for missing soldiers. All dead soldiers were brought home and properly buried ASAP.

Stop pretending it is OK to not tell families the fate of their loved ones and to not bother bringing them home to rest.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom