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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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JayUtah said:
Oh my God, are you actually trying to rehabilitate Bollyn as a reputable source? This should be good.

No, "being skeptical" doesn't make one an anti-Semite. Making a long-standing career out of spewing anti-Jewish rhetoric, of which his views on 9/11 is just one element, makes one an anti-Semite.



If there's no credible evidence that it happened that way, and if it's another brick in a wall of well-established anti-Semitic rhetoric, then it doesn't matter whether it's "anti-Semitic" in itself.

Bollyn is a disreputable source. He's your source for the "enforced disappearance" claim. You can't find another one. And you're so fixated on saving face that now you have to rehabilitate a monster.



Oh, now you start worrying about the authenticity and context of your sources' statements?
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No. SpitfireX claimed the extract was by Bollyn. I have no idea whether or not it was in context or a genuine extract.


Look. You do not need to go to Bollyn or Bjorkman to know it is highly unlikely the WT7 building will free-fall collapse of its own accord, without being struck by anything. If you believe it was 'caused by a fire from nearby burning debris' or that Estonia suddenly sank 'because of a wave', that is your prerogative. The thinkers amongst us can see what is plain to see.

I have not read Bollyn's theory about 9/11 but he is hardly the first to write about it. He is supposedly a PhD in Middle East History from a decent institution (California). If that is based on his intricate expert historical knowledge of the region, branding him an anti-Semite just sounds like name-calling. People can disagree with other people without descending into a race to the bottom of playground jibes. It is a controversial area. Some would say it is perfectly legitimate to ask whether the US invasion of Afghanistan was justified and whether 9/11 was a false flag by Bush to do so. Calling someone names to close down debate is exactly what seems to happen in this thread a lot.

If Bollyn's partner is a direct victim of Estonia in that her husband died in that disaster, then why would Bollyn not want to write a blog about it. What, in addition, does it have to do with his 9/11 views, which may or may not be anti-Semitic, as you claim. Have you actually read his book? Or is it a knee jerk reaction to anyone who can spot a lie when they see one?
 
Vixen said:
Look. You do not need to go to Bollyn or Bjorkman to know it is highly unlikely the WT7 building will free-fall collapse of its own accord, without being struck by anything. If you believe it was 'caused by a fire from nearby burning debris' or that Estonia suddenly sank 'because of a wave', that is your prerogative.
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Laughable.

Vixen said:
The thinkers amongst us can see what is plain to see.
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There are not enough laughing dogs.
 
JayUtah said:
Irrelevant. You didn't even attempt to find out which one Bollyn was. You just speculated your way out of a pickle and left it at that. When you tell us you have exceptional research skills, and then you do something like this, we all just laugh at you.
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Why should I? It was merely an example of the many who believed Sweden had effectively 'disappeared' the two Egyptians in 2001, and as Axxman300 points out, that was in the early aftermath of 9/11 and fierce anti-Muslim feeling as a result, thus the Swedes felt justified in handing over the guys in light of POTUS George Bush's demands via the CIA in Cairo.

It just happened to be one article that came up on Google. It was a blog about Estonia citing Sven Anér so why isn't it a valid source in your view?
 
Vixen said:
If you believe it was 'caused by a fire from nearby burning debris' or that Estonia suddenly sank 'because of a wave', that is your prerogative. The thinkers amongst us can see what is plain to see.
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Those straw men are really getting a clobbering today.

Meanwhile let's not lose sight of the fact that absolutely no part of this digression supports the point you raised it for in the first place: your hope of demonstrating that Sweden is in the habit of disappearing people.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Those straw men are really getting a clobbering today.

Meanwhile let's not lose sight of the fact that absolutely no part of this digression supports the point you raised it for in the first place: your hope of demonstrating that Sweden is in the habit of disappearing people.
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You are surely forgetting the following, whose fates were unknown between 1952 and 1990. For forty-eight years they were 'disappeared', with their families, friends, neighbours, work colleagues et al having absolutely no idea what had happened to them.

Recipient of the Armed Forces Medal of Merit in gold with sword
Alvar Älmeberg (pilot) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 1 ]
Gösta Blad (navigator and signalman) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 2 ]
Herbert Mattson (flight mechanic) on the shot down DC3 June 13, 1952, assigned posthumously June 13, 2004. [ 3 ]
Carl-Einar Jonsson (FRA, group leader) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 4 ]
Ivar Svensson (FRA, telegraphist) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 5 ]
Erik Carlsson (FRA, telegraph operator and Russian interpreter) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004.
Bengt Book (FRA, telegraphist) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 6 ]
Börje Nilsson (FRA, telegraph operator from Malmö ) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004.
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Wiki


In fact, these guys, whose bodies were finally located and recovered just off the coast of Gotland (and nowhere near Russian territory as had been suggested) and they received their Gold Medals of Merit with Sword, nine years after Ensign Kenneth Svensson.

Then there are the presumed missing twelve Estonians.

Throw in the two Egyptians in 2001, and you can see that Sweden does have a fall back policy of disappearing people in the name of 'classified information'. Even when it is by dint of a foreign power (Clinton, Bush).
 
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Vixen said:
... an example of the many who believed Sweden had effectively 'disappeared' the two Egyptians in 2001...
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Unable to show that Sweden disappeared anyone, we appear to have have watered down the claim, first to 'disappeared' in scare quotes and then diluted it yet further to effectively 'disappeared'.

Unable to demonstrate if even that can be shown to have happened, we are asked instead to ponder whether anyone believes it happened.

Vixen, what purpose does all this wordplay serve? Sweden did not disappear the Egyptians.
 
Vixen said:
You are surely forgetting the following, whose fates were unknown between 1952 and 1990. For forty-eight years they were 'disappeared', with their families, friends, neighbours, work colleagues et al having absolutely no idea what had happened to them.

Wiki


In fact, these guys, whose bodies were finally located and recovered just off the coast of Gotland (and nowhere near Russian territory as had been suggested) and they received their Gold Medals of Merit with Sword, nine years after Ensign Kenneth Svensson...
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They weren't disappeared by Sweden. They were killed by the USSR.

ETA: Ninja'd by someone near the topiary. :)
 
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Vixen said:
Why should I?
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Because he's the source you're trying to get people to believe.

It just happened to be one article that came up on Google.
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No. As was pointed out, you read it carefully enough to critique its grammar and to mine it for additional sources.

It was a blog about Estonia citing Sven Anér so why isn't it a valid source in your view?
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Because it's from a guy who's a raging anti-Semite, meaning that he isn't really paying attention to who's actually responsible for what. And because it's facially false from a legal perspective.

What exactly is your claim? Are you claiming (once again) that Christopher Bollyn is an okay guy and we should respect him as a source on global politics? Or are you claiming it's just something you stumbled across and should be forgiven for citing to? You're just replaying all the excuses you made a few days ago for using a patently unreliable source.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Sweden did not disappear those people either. The Russians killed them.
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The Swedish Defence Forces Intelligence heard it as it happened! It knew roughly the location the plane had come down. They knew all along the men were almost certainly dead (given it was one lone Soviet MIG, with no rescue back up) yet they let the families think they had no idea what had happened to the men: perhaps they had been escorted to Russian territory and were now in a gulag, was the hope kept alive by the men's own and encouraged by the state. All along it knew they were dead yet let the families suffer false hope. It was Russia that actually declassified the information in 1990, not Sweden. It was only then it took action to recover the aircraft and the bodies, then dragged its heels with the Gold Medals of Merit with Sword.
 
JayUtah said:
Because he's the source you're trying to get people to believe.



No. As was pointed out, you read it carefully enough to critique its grammar and to mine it for additional sources.



Because it's from a guy who's a raging anti-Semite, meaning that he isn't really paying attention to who's actually responsible for what. And because it's facially false from a legal perspective.

What exactly is your claim? Are you claiming (once again) that Christopher Bollyn is an okay guy and we should respect him as a source on global politics? Or are you claiming it's just something you stumbled across and should be forgiven for citing to? You're just replaying all the excuses you made a few days ago for using a patently unreliable source.
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Like Anders Bjorkman, I have zero interest in Bollyn.
 
Vixen said:
The Swedish Defence Forces Intelligence heard it as it happened! It knew roughly the location the plane had come down. They knew all along the men were almost certainly dead (given it was one lone Soviet MIG, with no rescue back up) yet they let the families think they had no idea what had happened to the men: perhaps they had been escorted to Russian territory and were now in a gulag, was the hope kept alive by the men's own and encouraged by the state. All along it knew they were dead yet let the families suffer false hope. It was Russia that actually declassified the information in 1990, not Sweden. It was only then it took action to recover the aircraft and the bodies, then dragged its heels with the Gold Medals of Merit with Sword.
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None of which is Sweden disappearing them.

In summary then, Vixen, you have failed to find any evidence of Sweden having a history of disappearing people, leaving your theory that they may have disappeared the senior officers of the Estonia entirely unsupported.

Can we move on now?
 
Vixen said:
The Swedish Defence Forces Intelligence heard it as it happened! It knew roughly the location the plane had come down. They knew all along the men were almost certainly dead (given it was one lone Soviet MIG, with no rescue back up) yet they let the families think they had no idea what had happened to the men: perhaps they had been escorted to Russian territory and were now in a gulag, was the hope kept alive by the men's own and encouraged by the state. All along it knew they were dead yet let the families suffer false hope. It was Russia that actually declassified the information in 1990, not Sweden. It was only then it took action to recover the aircraft and the bodies, then dragged its heels with the Gold Medals of Merit with Sword.
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Not that it matters, but the Swedes did not know the crew were all dead. Only that they had been attacked and their plane shot down. The Soviet fighter which shot them down allegedly reported parachutes but it doesn't appear any survivors were rescued.

The Soviet plan was to force the plane down and seize the electronic surveillance equipment aboard. They failed to coordinate that operation but it's what they intended.

Ultimately, although the Swedes did not reveal to the families everything they knew, they did not disappear the men.

No way in which you can reword this will magically cause them to have disappeared the men.
 
Vixen said:
Like Anders Bjorkman, I have zero interest in Bollyn.
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Then stop claiming, on his authority, that Sweden committed enforced disappearance against two Egyptian deportees.

Like Anders Björkman, he is an embarrassment to you because you do not vet your sources, but you keep needing to cite to them because you're a poor researcher and they're all you've got. Far from attempting to get to the bottom of things, you're just latching onto the first source that tells you what you want to hear, and then going through rhetorical gymnastics later when you need to save face for your poor choices. If you showed more interest in your sources, you wouldn't constantly be in the mess of apologizing for them.
 
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Vixen said:
Throw in the two Egyptians in 2001, and you can see that Sweden does have a fall back policy of disappearing people in the name of 'classified information'. Even when it is by dint of a foreign power (Clinton, Bush).
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The only person in addition to you that believes that the Egyptians were disappeared by Sweden is an anti-semite conspiracy theorist.

What have I told you about parroting arguments by nasty people? Well, when you do that, people start to believe that you are one of the nasty people, too.
 
Vixen said:
I am not 100% sure that being sceptical of the 9/11 'official reason' makes a person an 'anti-Semite'.
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It doesn't. Nobody said that "not being 100% skeptical of the 9/11 'official reason' makes a person an 'anti-Semite', so as usual, you're address a strawman that nobody has actually argued.

More of your usual intellectual dishonesty.
 
Vixen said:
No. SpitfireX claimed the extract was by Bollyn. I have no idea whether or not it was in context or a genuine extract.
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And you didn't care to find out. That's the ongoing problem.

Look. You do not need to go to Bollyn or Bjorkman to know it is highly unlikely the WT7 building will free-fall collapse of its own accord, without being struck by anything.
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But you do need a background in structural engineering to know such things, which you do not have. This is what makes it difficult to take you seriously. You literally believe that what little you may know about a very complicated subject is enough to render an opinion about it that others are bound to respect. Do you ever consider the possibility that other people might be smarter than you?

If you believe it was 'caused by a fire from nearby burning debris' or that Estonia suddenly sank 'because of a wave', that is your prerogative.
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What a person believes is not so important to me as why he believes it. I have beliefs about the things you mention because they happen to arise from the licensed field I've dedicated my life to learning and practicing. It takes years of education, years of apprenticeship, and a dedication to ongoing learning, adjudication, and practice.

You seem to believe things because you want to pretend you're smart, and conspiracy theories give you a shortcut to that emotional payoff.

The thinkers amongst us can see what is plain to see.
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You're not a thinker. You can't demonstrate having thought about anything you've posted here. All you can demonstrate is your willingness to gullibly parrot conspiracy theorists and other nutjobs and suggest that others think you clever and insightful for doing so.

The rest of us, who have actually learned the subjects you're playing with, are trying to teach you, but you have zero interest in learning. No, you're not some savant magically endowed with the ability to see through obfuscation. You're just a typical conspiracy theorist with delusions of grandeur.

The rest of your post is yet another attempt to apologize for Christopher Bollyn. If you want to make that bed you'll have to lay in it yourself. The man has no credibility with me, but if you want to keep citing him as a source, prepare to be laughed at.
 
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