Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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SuburbanTurkey said:
Wouldn't you agree that the vigorousness of the right wing freakout over this case does not seem to be appropriately grounded in fact?
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Sort of.

I know you are very interested in the right wing mob and what they are up to. I'm not especially concerned about it. It's a big thing to you, it seems, in this and other cases, but I, personally, don't care about what a mob thinks.

However, to address your point, when I first heard about the case, it was after the Daily Wire article broke, and it was presented as "Transgender kid rapes girl in bathroom", and everyone got a particular image of what went on. We imagined a girl going in to use the bathroom, being alone with a male who was allowed to be present, and the male raping her. Begin freakout.

It turns out the real story wasn't very much like the mental image at all. So, the TRA faction claims nothing to see here, move along.

In reality, though, there is definitely something to see here, even if it isn't what the mob first thought. Instead of focusing on the mob, let's focus on what really happened. To do that, though, we need more information than we actually have. We don't know who knew that he was in the girls' bathroom. Did any staff member know it? Did he use that bathroom at any time other than the three known sexual encounters?

I haven't been able to find out the answer, although I have explained why I believe that the answer is yes.

You, and a lot of people want to say that since the rape was just a seedy version of date rape, and it started as a consensual encounter, that it has nothing to do with transgender policy. That's mostly correct. It still might enable boys and girls access to private spaces where there is no surveillance, which will result in rather predictable behavior that is generally frowned upon at school, but it would be unfair to blame the rape on that alone. So, I don't think that we can say that the rape is a consequence of the policy, and I haven't been saying that for quite a while.

What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist.
 
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Meadmaker said:
What I have been saying for quite a while is not that a rape occurred because of trans inclusive policies. What I have been saying for quite a while is that, as a result of trans inclusive policies, girls at that school were sharing a bathroom with a rapist.
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And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation.

But yes, the mob and the right wing rags like the Daily Wire dropped this story like a ton of bricks once it became clear that it wasn't the anti-trans scare story they had hoped it would be. It doesn't really matter, the damage is done. The original smear will be remembered and the correction will not. The people originally complaining about this incident have no interest in finding out what is true, only confirming their bigotries.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
And what I've been saying for quite a while is that this is an entirely unproven speculation.
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I agree it's unproven.

The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases.
 
Meadmaker said:
I agree it's unproven.

The new Governor of Virginia ordered the new Attorney General of Virginia to conduct an investigation of Loudoun County schools yesterday. Perhaps we will learn more as a result of the investigation, or the civil cases.
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If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug.

Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt.
 
Lithrael said:
You make it sound like they were forced to close up shop. They have an annual budget of over a million dollars, and lost their $35k grant from City of Vancouver. They also (eventually) won the case against them brought by Kimberly Nixon (where they were arguing that she was not a suitable volunteer rape crisis peer counselor, as she didn’t entirely qualify as a peer).

This is all in line with my opinion that we are all still shaking out what makes sense and it’ll eventually slope off to something reasonably equitable.

To be clear, it’s my opinion that while trans women certainly need crisis support, there is nothing at all wrong with having some shelters among many that cater to cis women only. If there was a severe shortage of accessible trans inclusive shelters it would be a different story. I do feel that losing city funding is an acceptable consequence, for now. I also feel that harassment campaigns against such shelters are utterly misplaced and deeply reprehensible.
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There was some serious harassment of the center - including nailing a dead rat to the door, threatening messages written on the windows - some of this detailed here. I agree this is reprehensible behavior. And you agree that there should be female only spaces (including shelters).

Yes, males (including TW) may also need crisis centers and those should exist. But this current TRA movement is pretty clear that they want TW to be regarded as exactly the same as (actual) women - including the increasing use of the term 'female' to apply to TW.
 
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The oft recurring analogy from race to sex

Came across the following in the new book from Helen Joyce:
Moreover, even if the analogy between racial segregation and sex separation held, it would not support gender self-ID. The solution to racial segregation was not to allow some whites to identify as black, and vice versa, but to integrate. Someone who truly believed that the physical differences between male and female people who declared the same gender identity were so trivial that only a bigot would notice them would logically have to support a unisex world.
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I'd be interested in hearing a rejoinder from those who promote this analogy here.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
If I were a betting man I would say that run-of-the-mill ass-covering was happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some wrong-doing was discovered. There's a long tradition of authority figures trying to sweep bad behavior, especially those of a sexual nature, under the rug.
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There's certainly that. It's just a question of what they are covering it from.

Seems like slim odds that they're ever going to find their trans boogieman. Hopefully they keep the focus on actual bad actors rather than going on a snipe hunt.
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Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"?
 
Meadmaker said:
Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'm not sure what you mean by "trans boogieman" in this case. Right now, the widely held assumption is that there are no transgender people involved in this case. I don't think anyone is looking for one. Or did you mean something else by "trans boogieman"?
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The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all.

It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The trans boogieman in this case would be any evidence that a trans inclusive policy was at all relevant to this incident, or that a fear of anti-trans backlash played any role in any improper response to a criminal incident. Hell, a half-step towards that would be establishing that this kid was being treated as trans (allowed access to girls spaces) at all.

It's long odds for sure, especially considering the second attack seems to have no connection at all to the broader anti-trans narrative spun in the first.
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Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above.
 
'The Call Is Coming From Inside The House'

A documentary exploring the rise of transgender identity among teens.

A medical malpractice scandal comparable to the lobotomy fad.

 
Meadmaker said:
Ok. Then in that case, we're on the same page about what they will be looking for. I do indeed think they will be looking for a trans boogieman, as defined above.
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I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I'm always harping on "the plural of anecdote is not data", but apparently I was skipping an important step. Probably shouldn't assume these horror stories aren't total fabrications considering the clear biases of the sources.
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The highlighted is...not exactly true.

Information can be collected from anecdotes. These pieces of information are data points. The question is not if these are data points (they are), but how reliable or useful these data points are in forming or evaluating a hypothesis. Data collected from anecdotes are sometimes useful, as in the case in the article linked below:
Let’s take a specific example. The anecdotal reports from generations of fishermen and coast watchers allow us to generate an effective estimate of the extent of the historical habitat for the Southern Resident Killer Whales (SRKWs). Those compiled anecdotes were not systematically collected for the purposes of establishing the extent of the SRKWs’ habitat but those anecdotes do just that. When numerous, independent observers all document the presence of SRKWs off Haida Gwaii it confirms that this location is part of their historical range. The assembled anecdotes, collected for totally different reasons, are data in the context of establishing these historical extents.
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https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/01/21/sorry-folks-but-the-plural-of-anecdote-is-data/

The (mis)quote you are referring to is often used to dismiss anecdotal evidence without bothering to evaluate it. Obviously, anecdotal evidence has shortcomings because it is not rigorously and intentionally collected with planning and control. But it is evidence and anecdotes do contain data.

I say misquote because:
You may have heard the phrase the plural of anecdote is not data. It turns out that this is a misquote. The original aphorism, by the political scientist Ray Wolfinger, was just the opposite: The plural of anecdote is data.
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http://blog.danwin.com/don-t-forget-the-plural-of-anecdote-is-data/
 
The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport.

In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nce-criticised-as-unfair-towards-female-sport
 
Matthew Best said:
The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport.

In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nce-criticised-as-unfair-towards-female-sport
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That is disgraceful. Natal women will have no chance as more and more self ID transwomen see easy fame and fortune, and no need to do anything to reduce their power and stamina.
 
TomB said:
The highlighted is...not exactly true.

Information can be collected from anecdotes. These pieces of information are data points. The question is not if these are data points (they are), but how reliable or useful these data points are in forming or evaluating a hypothesis. Data collected from anecdotes are sometimes useful, as in the case in the article linked below:

https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/01/21/sorry-folks-but-the-plural-of-anecdote-is-data/

The (mis)quote you are referring to is often used to dismiss anecdotal evidence without bothering to evaluate it. Obviously, anecdotal evidence has shortcomings because it is not rigorously and intentionally collected with planning and control. But it is evidence and anecdotes do contain data.

I say misquote because:

http://blog.danwin.com/don-t-forget-the-plural-of-anecdote-is-data/
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The problem is that the data about these bathroom policies is very convincingly not in support of the reactionary view that trans inclusion will open the floodgates to sexual assaults and other crimes. It's not that these data-driven approaches haven't been done, it's just that conclusions are not favorable to their position.

In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position. They failed miserably in this case, but it's a big country and they'll almost certainly eventually find a suitable such anecdote.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position.
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Why would you say it is bigoted to discriminate based on sex but not on gender identity? Seems a bit conclusory.

If we're going to sort people into two groups for the sake of using the bathrooms, I'd say it makes a certain sense to put the bepenised people into the rooms fitted with urinals.

Were you hoping to avoid sorting altogether, instead?
 
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Matthew Best said:
The International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework has come under fire from medical experts who work for multiple sports federations, including World Athletics, World Triathlon and the International Cycling Union, who say it opens the door to unfair competition in female sport.

In a notable intervention, the scientists warn that IOC’s new guidance – which states there is no need for trans women to lower their testosterone to compete against natal women – ignores the science on sex, gender and performance and focuses mostly on inclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nce-criticised-as-unfair-towards-female-sport
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I only skimmed this, so I may be all wet, but when the new framework came out I thought that the key takeaway from it was that the IOC would punt these things back to the individual sporting federations instead of having a blanket policy for the Olympics.

As for testosterone, I thought that the message of the new framework was that testosterone levels alone were inadequate to ensure fairness, both because some cis-women have abnormally high testosterone levels, and because lowering testosterone levels does not completely eliminate the male advantage.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The problem is that the data about these bathroom policies is very convincingly not in support of the reactionary view that trans inclusion will open the floodgates to sexual assaults and other crimes. It's not that these data-driven approaches haven't been done, it's just that conclusions are not favorable to their position.

In the absence of this data, the anti-trans side seeks out anecdotes that they can flog in an attempt to win hearts and minds to their bigoted position. They failed miserably in this case, but it's a big country and they'll almost certainly eventually find a suitable such anecdote.
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I get what you're saying. I have previously confessed to surprise at how rare these incidents are, now that bathroom use policies have been liberalized. I expected more of them.

But, just so we are clear here, my "bigoted position" is that teenaged girls shouldn't be in a position where they are coerced into taking off their clothes in the presence of classmates who could make them pregnant. If that be bigotry, then let's make the most of it.
 
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